[SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS

Thu May 7 22:23:39 EDT 2015

I'm in the middle of a project on the 15th c sources, looking at some
comparison between sources and tracing evolutions of dances - I'm up to 6
dances worked through, heh. From what I've worked out so far, the NYPL
version of Ambrosio's work is significantly different from others-- I would
take either of the ones in the Paris National Library as more original if
you want to say "this is how Guglielmo/Ambrosio taught this dance". In
Sparti's book she notes that the NYPL one has a script stating that it is
the copy of master Giorgio of the dances of Domenico and Guglielmo (or
something like that, don't have my notes on me right now). Based on that
and the significant differences between dance descriptions I've come to
think that master Giorgio, whoever he was, had his own versions of the
dances and the copy may have been made later (1470s-90s). One of the major
differences in that NYPL is the only source for any of the dances I've
worked on that states that you start over with the woman "leading",
including in Belriguardo for 2 where it makes no sense since you do all the
same steps at the same time. (It does make sense in Belriguardo  nuovo
which is only in that ms.)

"The description of the piva as "a double that is altered and accelerated
by the music that stimulates the dancer to it" comes from Cornazano, not
Guglielmo. Guglielmo says almost nothing about the steps as such. He
discusses piva, saltarello, quadernaria and bassadanza extensively as
musical tempi, but for all you can tell from his writing they might all
just be doubles done at different speeds with different effects."

They basically are? I would argue that if you want to figure out steps it's
Domenico and not Cornazzano or Guglielmo you should be looking at. He goes
into a lot more depth and as redundant as the whole "this is what happens
if you do x step in y tempi" sections seem there's some interesting details
in there. If you think about it the differences are really in rhythm and
ornamentation-- the base idea of "you do three steps in a measure" is found
in all of them.

"How many years between the first Amoroso and the last?  If I remember
right, Judith said 80 years.  Perhaps that does make it different from
what I'd been thinking of, Playford versus Lovelace versus MS Sloane
3858, where they're probably separated by a few years last I heard."

That's a good point. In addition to those in the various versions of
Guglielmo/Ambrosios MS, there's also a description in the 1517 letter of
"L'Amorosa" -- so maybe that's where 80 years figure is coming from?

My tracing descriptions project started with wanting to compare the dances
in that letter to the earlier versions. Some are much changed, some are
only a little, but I think it's reasonable to expect a change over  nearly
a century, even if tune and name survive. If nothing else, think about how
different Italian fashion was from 1440 to 1517, and how that might
influence how you danced.

Helena Hrolfsdotir

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:32 PM, Aaron Macks <upelluri at gmail.com> wrote:

> I believe you're incorrect.  Sparti talks about starting her project as
> a translation/annotation of the NYPL manuscript after the death of the
> donor, but then changes to translate what she believes is the source MS,
> which is also the only one with a dedication and music, BnF Ital. 973
>
> Gunðormr
>
> On 4/26/15 11:04 PM, Mary Railing wrote:
> >     The "New York Public Library version" is the one used by Barbara
> Sparti for her translation of Guglielmo's treatise. Her translation is
> worth looking up as an alternative to Smith. It also includes introductory
> chapters on the background of the treatise, Guglielmo's life, the context
> of the dances in renaissance Italy, and the musical notation. It is in
> print, but very expensive. It should be available in academic libraries.
> >      De Pratica Seu Arte Tripudi: "On the Practice or Are of Dancing" ,
> Guglielmo Ebreo of Pesaro (Author), Barbara Sparti (Translator)
> >
> >      The description of the piva as "a double that is altered and
> accelerated by the music that stimulates the dancer to it" comes from
> Cornazano, not Guglielmo. Guglielmo says almost nothing about the steps as
> such. He discusses piva, saltarello, quadernaria and bassadanza extensively
> as musical tempi, but for all you can tell from his writing they might all
> just be doubles done at different speeds with different effects.
> >
> >      Amoroso is in piva. Sparti transcribed the music "for easier
> reading only" in 2/4.
> >
> >      I'm not so sure about the "leading" thing. I seem to recall
> references to the lady leading the repeat of the dance, using the verb
> "guider", which doesn't necessarily mean leading in the sense of
> "preceding". However, after skimming through various dances, I haven't
> found an example of this. Now I'm wondering if our practice of repeating
> the dance with the lady leading is the exception rather than the rule with
> these dances.
> >      As for pictures showing two people in file or side by side, I have
> examples of both, but the list won't allow attached pictures. We normally
> hold hands in a dance with the man's right hand under the lady's left hand.
> However, many period pictures show the man's hand over the lady's, the way
> couples today hold hands when walking down the street. This position allows
> the man to be either right beside the lady or to pull her along slightly
> behind him.
> >
> > --Urraca Yriarte de Gamboa
> >
> > P.S. SCA-Dance usually bounces my posts. If this message doesn't appear
> on that list, would you do me the favor of posting it there?
> > --------------------------------------------
> > On Sun, 4/26/15, tmcd at panix.com <tmcd at panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >  Subject: [SCA-Dance]  Misc. questions from KWDS
> >  To: "SCA Dance" <sca-dance at sca-dance.org>
> >  Date: Sunday, April 26, 2015, 2:40 AM
> >
> >  I have some questions from KWDS, and
> >  realized I could ask the list.
> >  (And thereby ask Perronnelle, whom I was originally going to
> >  bother.)
> >
> >  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >  Countess Judith de Northumbria (Rachel Lorenz)
> >  Reconsidering the lilly: Gelosia, Amoroso and Belfiore
> >
> >  She cited Smith, A. William, _15th Century Dance and Music_,
> >  as the
> >  source for the Amoroso version she taught.  She called
> >  that version
> >  the "New York Public Library" version.  Is there any
> >  more information
> >  on that particular source, or is it just a weird catalog
> >  number?
> >  I'm idly curious about this bit.
> >
> >  As best I wrote it, the manuscript says that the piva is "a
> >  double
> >  that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates
> >  the
> >  dancer to it".  Is this the only definition of piva, or
> >  are there
> >  similar ones from other sources?
> >
> >  Is Amoroso's tempo quaternaria?
> >
> >  Do I remember right, that she said that the manuals talk
> >  about one
> >  person "leading", and there are pictures of people
> >  approximately in
> >  file?  Is side-by-side also attested in pictures?
> >
> >  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
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> --
> _______________________________________________________
> Aaron Macks(aaronm at wiglaf.org) [http://www.wiglaf.org/~aaronm ]
> My sheep has seven gall bladders, that makes me the King of the Universe!
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