Time has come to stop with /usr/local path pollution!

[Paul Fleming]

I'm going to throw out my opinion too.. 

Please no flames. This isn't directed at anyone -- just my observations 
after using/maintaining Cyrus for 4 years (v1.5.19 still in production) 

First, CMU places a nice disclaimer in the docs. Cyrus is on the same order
of NetNews to install -- historically compiling/installing/maintaining news
server software has been a daunting task at best. When we started w/ Cyrus
(1998) it was a big departure from the traditional mbox mail system. Even
today if you want a simple to install mailsystem use mbox+/var/mail.  Cyrus 
is a much more robust system and as a result requires more time and experience 
to install. Additionally, if you are trying to build a big mail system you 
better have more experience than "I've installed Linux a few times." Building 
large, scalable, and secure mail systems requires experience, patience and 
usually lots of caffeine and little sleep. (subscribing to this list helps too)

Second, opensource does NOT work unless people contribute. CMU developed and
maintains this software for their own use -- the rest of us get a free ride.
I really appreciate the contributions Ken and others have made to the project. 
If you find something you don't like/think needs changing do what the rest of 
us do - change it and contrib it back to CMU. The current group of Cyrus 
developers have been great w/ working with outside patches etc. (users since
v1 will remember those days when CMU was just trying to make it work ;-) )

Cyrus has been instrumental in our organizations conversion to opensource. 
Without Cyrus, we'd be running Groupwise or M$ Exchange ick! If Cyrus is too
complicated / difficult for you to install/maintain go hire someone who can
or purchase one of the above mentioned packages. 

Some important points:

1) Many thanks to CMU for releasing and trying to support this great software.

2) You get what you pay for (in this case remember the code is free)

3) If it breaks -- you get to keep both pieces -- but ask nicely many of us have
broken Cyrus too.

4) Participate -- subscribe to the list, submit docs fixes etc if you can, discuss 
issues on the list, don't post "bitching" about this or that unless you are 
willing to do something about it.

5) If you don't like #4 quit wasting our time..

Paul
Satisfied Cyrus user & contributor since v1.5.14 


On Sat, 28 Sep 2002, Ken Murchison wrote:

> Quoting Andrew Diederich <andrew at NETdelivery.com>:
> 
> > I'd just ask that if a known bug isn't going to be fixed, it needs to be
> > documented and put upfront, big and large, where folks will see it.
> > Shutting off compiler warnings with gcc 3.2 is an example.  It broke
> > compile, but folks were talking about it on the list.  
> > 
> > Many of the developers, and people on this list, know about the problem,
> > but
> > people who just download the software, read the docs, and try to install it
> > will get burned otherwise.  Then they'll curse the crappy software, and
> > they'll be right.  
> > 
> > There are three things to do when a bug is found.  1) fix it, 2) document
> > the bug and the workaround, or 3) hope people don't find it again.  #3 is
> > terribly expensive in support costs, like this string of emails.
> 
> Its seems that people are missing a very important point here.  Cyrus was 
> developed for internal use at CMU.  CMU has been kind enough to allow the 
> source code to be distributed for use by anybody, commercial or otherwise.
> 
> Some may argue that CMU has a responsibility to fix all bugs, write good 
> documentation, hand-hold ignorant/illiterate admins, make coffee, and clean 
> windows.  In most cases, they do all of the above, and more.
> 
> I wish people would keep this in mind, when they claim that the build process 
> is broken.  It is broken for _you_, because I can assure you that it built for 
> the intended user (CMU).  The developers first responsibilty is to their 
> employers, not to a small, whiny part of the user community with an edge-case 
> problem.
> 
> If people spend the same amount of time trying to fix the problem instead of 
> bitching about it, this would've been a dead issue a long time ago.  It don't 
> think that the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" principal is necessarily going 
> to work.
> 
> The next time somebody is frustrated by the software and wants to rant about 
> how much of their time the developers wasted, take a step back and remember how 
> much time and money they actually _saved_ you.
> 
> Another $.02
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rob Siemborski [mailto:rjs3 at andrew.cmu.edu]
> > 
> > On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Michael Newlyn Blake wrote:
> > 
> > > However it does seem that when explicit paths are called for certain
> > > componants they should be placed in line before the assumed system paths.
> > > That is to say, if you want to build and link against a libfoo in
> > > /snert/myjunk/foo-8.3.4 then this should be placed in the relevant paths
> > > before the include and lib dirs in /usr or /usr/local that are added
> > > automatically.
> > 
> > I agree 100% that the paths should be honored.  However, since it works
> > for most people, and testing is pretty annoying (as ken stated), I'm not
> > terribly eager to spend my time doing it, when I could be working on
> > performance or feature improvements elsewhere in the code.
> > 
> > If there was a patch provided that I could look at, approve, and apply,
> > I'd be willing to do so.  This is much less the case if I'm going to have
> > to read a bug report hidden inside of a rant that seems to assume that the
> > developers of Cyrus are part of a consipracy against all system
> > administrators everywhere.
> > 
> > -Rob
> > 
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> > Rob Siemborski * Andrew Systems Group * Cyert Hall 207 * 412-268-7456
> > Research Systems Programmer * /usr/contributed Gatekeeper
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Kenneth Murchison     Oceana Matrix Ltd.
> Software Engineer     21 Princeton Place
> 716-662-8973 x26      Orchard Park, NY 14127
> --PGP Public Key--    http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp
>