Meeting minutes 15 Feb [was Re: Meeting minutes 8 Feb]

Jan Parcel jan.parcel at
Mon Feb 15 19:44:23 EST 2016

On 02/15/2016 03:16 PM, ellie timoney via Cyrus-devel wrote:
>> Ellie,
>> Could you expand on the "complicated questions"?
> I can try -- to a certain extent they're complicated cause I'm not
> entirely sure how to express them to myself yet either.
> It's mostly around conflicting goals and finding the least bad
> compromise, I guess.
> I think the main useful things we get out of the current segregated
> approach are:
>    * granularity of commit access
>    * distinct build tools for distinct tasks
>    * existing/known workflows
>    * uncluttered commit histories
> (sing out if there's more, I don't work on the cyrus-docs repo heavily)
> And main pain points we get from it are:
>    * lack of relationship between documentation and code (which version
>    of the code does a version of documentation apply to? did this code
>    change have a corresponding documentation change? was this
>    documentation change fixing a bug in documentation, or tracking a
>    change in behaviour? etc)
>    * the need to include documentation (man pages, install docs, release
>    notes, READMEs, etc) in release distributions that is, increasingly,
>    authoritatively managed in the cyrus-docs repository
>    * the need to include documentation (some install docs) on the website
>    that is authoritatively managed in the cyrus-imapd repository
>    * the need to include documentation (some man pages) on the website
>    that is auto-generated from source in the cyrus-imapd repository
> (anything else?)
> And I guess what we want from combining the two repositories is:
>    * resolution of some/all of the pain points
>    * minimal introduction of new pain points
>    * hopefully some way to keep some of the useful aspects
> I did a little research yesterday into some of our options for combining
> the two repositories into one.  There's a few:
> 1) just add the current cyrus-docs files to the cyrus-imapd repository
> 2) use a subtree merge to bring cyrus-docs and its history into
> cyrus-imapd
> 3) keep the cyrus-docs repository separate, but add it to the
> cyrus-imapd repository as a submodule
> 4) something similar to a subtree merge, but manually
> (probably something else?)
> Note that no matter which approach we take here, there'll be a
> non-trivial piece of work in integrating the build systems.  I'm pretty
> comfortable that I can manage this -- I seem to have spent a fair bit of
> time wrangling our autoconf setup so far -- it'll just be fiddly, and
> therefore not quickly finished.
> With option 1 we would lose the commit history of cyrus-docs; I'm
> assuming that's unacceptable.  Otherwise, it's the least complicated
> option.
> With option 2 we keep the commit history of cyrus-docs, with some
> caveats: as I understand it, tracing the history is difficult/fiddly
> (but not impossible)
> With option 3, we keep most of the benefits of the segregated
> repositories.  I'm led to believe submodules are
> kind of a pain to work with, but I suspect that can be encapsulated with
> some custom tooling + maintainer-mode-only autoconf rules, and will
> hopefully not bleed over into normal development/documentation
> workflows.  We wouldn't really gain a clear relationship between doc
> revisions/code revisions, but we also don't have that now.
> With option 4, we might be able to get a clearer/more coherent history
> than with a subtree merge, but we also might not.  I picture this
> involving an index-filter to move the cyrus-docs files into a unique
> subdirectory, plus some remote juggling and a big merge.  I'm not
> entirely clear how this differs from a subtree merge, but some stack
> overflow discussions sort of implied that it does and that under some
> circumstances this was preferable.
> There's more research required (like, actually trying out the different
> merge types to see what happens in practice) before I could conclusively
> recommend one way or another.  I haven't done this sort of thing before,
> has anyone else?
> Part of me is leaning towards option 3, except that like 80% of what
> I've ever heard about submodules could be summarised as "considered
> harmful", and I have no experience with them myself to counterbalance
> that.
> But the really fiddly thing here is always going to be the fact that we
> need to build most of the man pages from rst files, but we need to build
> some of them (and thus their corresponding web pages...) from imapd
> source files.  Taken broadly, i.e. treating "man pages" as a homogenous
> collection, that's a cyclical dependency.  Squishing it all together
> (options 1, 2, 4) makes that relatively easy to resolve just with
> autoconf, but option 3 will need tooling/process work.
> Cheers,
> ellie
> On Tue, Feb 16, 2016, at 01:15 AM, Nic Bernstein via Cyrus-devel wrote:
>> On 02/15/2016 05:34 AM, Nicola Nye via Cyrus-devel wrote:
>>> Nicola
>>> <...>- Next task: look at integrating the docs repo into the source
>>> repo so that we can single-source things like man pages into man files
>>> for release packaging as well as html for the website.
>>> Ellie
>>> - Been thinking about implications of merging docs/source repos, Has
>>> uncovered some complicated questions with no clear answers yet.
>> Ellie,
>> Could you expand on the "complicated questions"?
>> I spent some time last week working my way through the mailing list
>> traffic from the past several months, and getting my head back into
>> Cyrus space.  The new stuff on looks good.  Now I'm trying
>> to figure out how and where I can jump back in to this whole squirrelly
>> docs project.
>> Yours,
>>       -nic
>> -- 
>> Nic Bernstein                             nic at
>> Onlight Inc.                    
>> 6525 W Bluemound Rd., Ste 24              v. 414.272.4477
>> Milwaukee, Wisconsin  53213-4073          f. 414.290.0335
As a consumer, I'd like to say a couple of things.

1.  I really REALLY don't want to see it become difficult, on my end, to 
get the right versions of the libsasl2 docs on download. Apparently 
quite a few pages disappeared between 1.5.28 and 2.1.26, but those pages 
still appear in other places (including Solaris, possibly-corrected for 
2.N.N)  I don't view them as "part of" imap.

2.  I've got some severe formatting problems displaying saslauthd(8) , 
which I hope is unique to that file and not a trend.  saslauthd.8 
appears to be pre-roff'd, it looks like the others are not.

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