From bwebb at inf.ed.ac.uk  Fri May  1 10:07:56 2015
From: bwebb at inf.ed.ac.uk (Barbara Webb)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 15:07:56 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [SCA-Dance] Sca-dance Digest, Vol 112, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <mailman.136261.1430135534.9245.sca-dance@sca-dance.org>
References: <mailman.136261.1430135534.9245.sca-dance@sca-dance.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.10.1505011454360.19796@windgassen.inf.ed.ac.uk>


My previous reply to this doesn't seem to have appeared, so posting again:

> From: Justin du coeur <jducoeur at gmail.com>
>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 7:35 PM, Rachel/Judith <judithsca at aol.com> wrote:
>
>>     However, regarding the undercut -  I have spent years poring over
>> primary-source information on the piva and have yet to see any evidence of
>> the undercut there - where is it hinted at specifically? I would certainly
>> be interested in anything that precise.
>
> +1.  We had done away with the cut-under locally about 20-25 years ago,
> because we couldn't find any textual justification for it; I'm curious what
> the source of its recent resurgence is...

I think one reason the undercut (or some form of 'step-together-step') for 
piva tends to recur is that people make their steps too large. Doing three 
passing steps at piva tempo is quite difficult if you are not used to it. 
I find emphasising that the individual steps should be quite small (at 
least when starting out) helps a lot to counteract this tendency. There is 
probably also, to some extent, a carry over from other forms of dance 
where 6/8 rhythm will often go along with a cut-step - and if some members 
of the group are confidently (if mis-guidedly) doing this, others will 
copy them, and pick up a habit that is very hard to break.

Caitlin

-- 
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


From jducoeur at gmail.com  Fri May  1 10:43:37 2015
From: jducoeur at gmail.com (Justin du coeur)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 10:43:37 -0400
Subject: [SCA-Dance] Sca-dance Digest, Vol 112, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.10.1505011454360.19796@windgassen.inf.ed.ac.uk>
References: <mailman.136261.1430135534.9245.sca-dance@sca-dance.org>
	<alpine.LRH.2.10.1505011454360.19796@windgassen.inf.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <CAO26FW0f7sDLz-pnnUm5nin4x+hnNCqE0aDTAzeQb=-Dy_qVpw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Barbara Webb <bwebb at inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

> I think one reason the undercut (or some form of 'step-together-step') for
> piva tends to recur is that people make their steps too large. Doing three
> passing steps at piva tempo is quite difficult if you are not used to it.
> I find emphasising that the individual steps should be quite small (at
> least when starting out) helps a lot to counteract this tendency.


Huh.  YMMV, but my experience is the opposite -- folks tend to gradually
turn the cut-under into a skipping step, which sometimes gets *huge* when
they get enthusiastic about it.

I find that teaching the steps as written tends to constrain step size
somewhat.  We take piva to be exactly a quick double step (which the
sources suggest), and we teach the down-flat-up rising double step quite
early on.  That tends to become down-up-up at piva tempo, so you're doing
most of the step on the balls of your feet, which in my experience *tends*
to make my steps a bit smaller.  Not Caroso-level tiny, but not great
gallumphs.


> There is
> probably also, to some extent, a carry over from other forms of dance
> where 6/8 rhythm will often go along with a cut-step - and if some members
> of the group are confidently (if mis-guidedly) doing this, others will
> copy them, and pick up a habit that is very hard to break.


*That* I totally believe.  Indeed, I've always assumed that this tendency
was basically the 16th century spezzato sneaking into 15th century dances
simply because it sounded right, and spreading through osmosis.  Which I
don't mind overmuch -- I treat the SCA as a living dance tradition to some
degree -- but I like to make sure I'm usually *teaching* the best
interpretation I know.

From xcvii at alum.mit.edu  Fri May  1 17:22:52 2015
From: xcvii at alum.mit.edu (Troy Daniels)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 17:22:52 -0400
Subject: [SCA-Dance] Sca-dance Digest, Vol 112, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <CAO26FW0f7sDLz-pnnUm5nin4x+hnNCqE0aDTAzeQb=-Dy_qVpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.136261.1430135534.9245.sca-dance@sca-dance.org>
	<alpine.LRH.2.10.1505011454360.19796@windgassen.inf.ed.ac.uk>
	<CAO26FW0f7sDLz-pnnUm5nin4x+hnNCqE0aDTAzeQb=-Dy_qVpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALSS3zNmF12UDciJuX0W-CrkW1MuvnYFTXoCcDvCaBgH-63-vw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Justin du coeur <jducoeur at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Huh.  YMMV, but my experience is the opposite -- folks tend to gradually
> turn the cut-under into a skipping step, which sometimes gets *huge* when
> they get enthusiastic about it.
>
>
I seem to recall being taught the step-cut-step version with the note that
"you can go quite far with this variation".  If I am on the end of a set of
Petit V'rien with some high-speed lunatic on the left, I will use that step
as then I can keep up.

>From an aesthetic point of view, if you are using large steps, three
passing steps starts to look a lot like running.  Step-cut-step does not
look like any normal gait, so it feels like you are doing something
different, which must mean you are dancing.

Udalrich

From judithsca at aol.com  Fri May  1 20:24:51 2015
From: judithsca at aol.com (Rachel/Judith)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 20:24:51 -0400
Subject: [SCA-Dance] Sca-dance Digest, Vol 113, Issue 1 - Down-up-l;
	at double?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.23.1430496001.26256.sca-dance@sca-dance.org>
References: <mailman.23.1430496001.26256.sca-dance@sca-dance.org>
Message-ID: <14d1202ecfa-4a7d-e351@webprd-m66.mail.aol.com>


 Salvete!
  Justin du Ceour wrote:


I find that teaching the steps
as written tends to constrain step size
somewhat.  We take piva to be exactly a
quick double step (which the
sources suggest), and we teach the down-flat-up
rising double step quite
early on.  That tends to become down-up-up at piva
tempo, so you're doing
most of the step on the balls of your feet, which in my
experience *tends*
to make my steps a bit smaller.  Not Caroso-level tiny, but
not great
gallumphs.

 

When you say down, do you mean bending your knees so that you actually dip down on the first step of the double? If so, I have seen this before and wonder whence this interpretation oriented. There is talk in the sources about rising through the double, comparisons to gentle waves, etc., but I cannot recall anything about stepping *down*. Do you have something specific for this?

Best,
Judith

**************************

 

From jducoeur at gmail.com  Fri May  1 21:20:41 2015
From: jducoeur at gmail.com (Justin du coeur)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 21:20:41 -0400
Subject: [SCA-Dance] Sca-dance Digest, Vol 113, Issue 1 - Down-up-l;
	at double?
In-Reply-To: <14d1202ecfa-4a7d-e351@webprd-m66.mail.aol.com>
References: <mailman.23.1430496001.26256.sca-dance@sca-dance.org>
	<14d1202ecfa-4a7d-e351@webprd-m66.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAO26FW3ZoRbr87C5jBN9SNos=wtChCtF-WjrjYS7dpoZzQLZ8w@mail.gmail.com>

I'm away from home at the moment, so I don't have my sources to hand (and
this was 20 years ago), but IIRC it originally derived from a reference in
Domenico or Ebreo about the step starting up like a hawk stooping to
strike, or something like that.  We'd been raised on Ingrid's down-up-flat
steps; based on that passage, we decided that down-flat-up, with a steady
rise throughout, seemed a more likely reading.  So that's how we interpret
undaggiare.  (Sp?)

Mind, I teach the effect as fairly subtle - a slight bend on the first
step, up to balls on the feet on the last. I find that it suits the
repertoire well, and pairs well with a slight umbraggiare...
On May 1, 2015 8:25 PM, "Rachel/Judith" <judithsca at aol.com> wrote:

>
>  Salvete!
>   Justin du Ceour wrote:
>
>
> I find that teaching the steps
> as written tends to constrain step size
> somewhat.  We take piva to be exactly a
> quick double step (which the
> sources suggest), and we teach the down-flat-up
> rising double step quite
> early on.  That tends to become down-up-up at piva
> tempo, so you're doing
> most of the step on the balls of your feet, which in my
> experience *tends*
> to make my steps a bit smaller.  Not Caroso-level tiny, but
> not great
> gallumphs.
>
>
>
> When you say down, do you mean bending your knees so that you actually dip
> down on the first step of the double? If so, I have seen this before and
> wonder whence this interpretation oriented. There is talk in the sources
> about rising through the double, comparisons to gentle waves, etc., but I
> cannot recall anything about stepping *down*. Do you have something
> specific for this?
>
> Best,
> Judith
>
> **************************
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed
> in the To line of any response.
>
> To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org
>
> Posting guidlines on the list info page:
> https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance
> ________________________________________________________________
>

From penelopemillar at gmail.com  Thu May  7 22:23:39 2015
From: penelopemillar at gmail.com (Penelope Millar)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 22:23:39 -0400
Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS
In-Reply-To: <553E9CE8.5070906@gmail.com>
References: <1430103878.33822.YahooMailBasic@web121806.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<553E9CE8.5070906@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF+WW2UkSXbg_CPiVC0K39ShTfaMMVWPTecoUq3U+wm8Vr6t8g@mail.gmail.com>

I'm in the middle of a project on the 15th c sources, looking at some
comparison between sources and tracing evolutions of dances - I'm up to 6
dances worked through, heh. From what I've worked out so far, the NYPL
version of Ambrosio's work is significantly different from others-- I would
take either of the ones in the Paris National Library as more original if
you want to say "this is how Guglielmo/Ambrosio taught this dance". In
Sparti's book she notes that the NYPL one has a script stating that it is
the copy of master Giorgio of the dances of Domenico and Guglielmo (or
something like that, don't have my notes on me right now). Based on that
and the significant differences between dance descriptions I've come to
think that master Giorgio, whoever he was, had his own versions of the
dances and the copy may have been made later (1470s-90s). One of the major
differences in that NYPL is the only source for any of the dances I've
worked on that states that you start over with the woman "leading",
including in Belriguardo for 2 where it makes no sense since you do all the
same steps at the same time. (It does make sense in Belriguardo  nuovo
which is only in that ms.)

"The description of the piva as "a double that is altered and accelerated
by the music that stimulates the dancer to it" comes from Cornazano, not
Guglielmo. Guglielmo says almost nothing about the steps as such. He
discusses piva, saltarello, quadernaria and bassadanza extensively as
musical tempi, but for all you can tell from his writing they might all
just be doubles done at different speeds with different effects."

They basically are? I would argue that if you want to figure out steps it's
Domenico and not Cornazzano or Guglielmo you should be looking at. He goes
into a lot more depth and as redundant as the whole "this is what happens
if you do x step in y tempi" sections seem there's some interesting details
in there. If you think about it the differences are really in rhythm and
ornamentation-- the base idea of "you do three steps in a measure" is found
in all of them.

"How many years between the first Amoroso and the last?  If I remember
right, Judith said 80 years.  Perhaps that does make it different from
what I'd been thinking of, Playford versus Lovelace versus MS Sloane
3858, where they're probably separated by a few years last I heard."

That's a good point. In addition to those in the various versions of
Guglielmo/Ambrosios MS, there's also a description in the 1517 letter of
"L'Amorosa" -- so maybe that's where 80 years figure is coming from?

My tracing descriptions project started with wanting to compare the dances
in that letter to the earlier versions. Some are much changed, some are
only a little, but I think it's reasonable to expect a change over  nearly
a century, even if tune and name survive. If nothing else, think about how
different Italian fashion was from 1440 to 1517, and how that might
influence how you danced.

Helena Hrolfsdotir

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:32 PM, Aaron Macks <upelluri at gmail.com> wrote:

> I believe you're incorrect.  Sparti talks about starting her project as
> a translation/annotation of the NYPL manuscript after the death of the
> donor, but then changes to translate what she believes is the source MS,
> which is also the only one with a dedication and music, BnF Ital. 973
>
> Gun?ormr
>
> On 4/26/15 11:04 PM, Mary Railing wrote:
> >     The "New York Public Library version" is the one used by Barbara
> Sparti for her translation of Guglielmo's treatise. Her translation is
> worth looking up as an alternative to Smith. It also includes introductory
> chapters on the background of the treatise, Guglielmo's life, the context
> of the dances in renaissance Italy, and the musical notation. It is in
> print, but very expensive. It should be available in academic libraries.
> >      De Pratica Seu Arte Tripudi: "On the Practice or Are of Dancing" ,
> Guglielmo Ebreo of Pesaro (Author), Barbara Sparti (Translator)
> >
> >      The description of the piva as "a double that is altered and
> accelerated by the music that stimulates the dancer to it" comes from
> Cornazano, not Guglielmo. Guglielmo says almost nothing about the steps as
> such. He discusses piva, saltarello, quadernaria and bassadanza extensively
> as musical tempi, but for all you can tell from his writing they might all
> just be doubles done at different speeds with different effects.
> >
> >      Amoroso is in piva. Sparti transcribed the music "for easier
> reading only" in 2/4.
> >
> >      I'm not so sure about the "leading" thing. I seem to recall
> references to the lady leading the repeat of the dance, using the verb
> "guider", which doesn't necessarily mean leading in the sense of
> "preceding". However, after skimming through various dances, I haven't
> found an example of this. Now I'm wondering if our practice of repeating
> the dance with the lady leading is the exception rather than the rule with
> these dances.
> >      As for pictures showing two people in file or side by side, I have
> examples of both, but the list won't allow attached pictures. We normally
> hold hands in a dance with the man's right hand under the lady's left hand.
> However, many period pictures show the man's hand over the lady's, the way
> couples today hold hands when walking down the street. This position allows
> the man to be either right beside the lady or to pull her along slightly
> behind him.
> >
> > --Urraca Yriarte de Gamboa
> >
> > P.S. SCA-Dance usually bounces my posts. If this message doesn't appear
> on that list, would you do me the favor of posting it there?
> > --------------------------------------------
> > On Sun, 4/26/15, tmcd at panix.com <tmcd at panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >  Subject: [SCA-Dance]  Misc. questions from KWDS
> >  To: "SCA Dance" <sca-dance at sca-dance.org>
> >  Date: Sunday, April 26, 2015, 2:40 AM
> >
> >  I have some questions from KWDS, and
> >  realized I could ask the list.
> >  (And thereby ask Perronnelle, whom I was originally going to
> >  bother.)
> >
> >  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >  Countess Judith de Northumbria (Rachel Lorenz)
> >  Reconsidering the lilly: Gelosia, Amoroso and Belfiore
> >
> >  She cited Smith, A. William, _15th Century Dance and Music_,
> >  as the
> >  source for the Amoroso version she taught.  She called
> >  that version
> >  the "New York Public Library" version.  Is there any
> >  more information
> >  on that particular source, or is it just a weird catalog
> >  number?
> >  I'm idly curious about this bit.
> >
> >  As best I wrote it, the manuscript says that the piva is "a
> >  double
> >  that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates
> >  the
> >  dancer to it".  Is this the only definition of piva, or
> >  are there
> >  similar ones from other sources?
> >
> >  Is Amoroso's tempo quaternaria?
> >
> >  Do I remember right, that she said that the manuals talk
> >  about one
> >  person "leading", and there are pictures of people
> >  approximately in
> >  file?  Is side-by-side also attested in pictures?
> >
> >  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is
> listed
> > in the To line of any response.
> >
> > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org
> >
> > Posting guidlines on the list info page:
> https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance
> > ________________________________________________________________
> >
>
> --
> _______________________________________________________
> Aaron Macks(aaronm at wiglaf.org) [http://www.wiglaf.org/~aaronm ]
> My sheep has seven gall bladders, that makes me the King of the Universe!
> ________________________________________________________________
> To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed
> in the To line of any response.
>
> To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org
>
> Posting guidlines on the list info page:
> https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance
> ________________________________________________________________
>

From lindahl at pbm.com  Fri May 15 17:46:28 2015
From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 14:46:28 -0700
Subject: [SCA-Dance]  help wanted for SCA dance history project
Message-ID: <20150515214628.GA14730@rd.bx9.net>

I'm teaching a class on "The History of Dance in the SCA" at Pennsic,
and I could use some help preparing for it. Eventually I'm going to be
pumping everyone's brains, but the first thing I have up is an
hour-long recording of an interview of Justin du Coeur by Isabel D
Triana, back in 1990 or so. If someone (or two) could make a first
pass at transcribing it, then Justin and I'll go through and polish it
up... please respond directly to me at lindahl at pbm.com, thanks.

-- Gregory


From sarah.scroggie at gmail.com  Sat May 16 23:44:04 2015
From: sarah.scroggie at gmail.com (Sarah Scroggie)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 23:44:04 -0400
Subject: [SCA-Dance] An Interesting Welsh tune list from 1595
Message-ID: <CAG=wCP=E5SRScCHPm_s74sMaPqFY87BNBWA3UM_hkUO_y4LHJQ@mail.gmail.com>

I just bumped into this list of tunes from  randomly searching "the shaking
of the sheets" - I had not seen this before - so I thought all of you also
might not have seen it -  and it has an extraordinary number of tune names
that correspond to Playford tune names some 50 years later...

http://heatherrosejones.com/welshfaqs/music.html#Playlist

  Emma



-- 
Sarah Scroggie,
Mother and Theatre technician/ set designer

Cell: (519) 217 7274
Home: (519) 940-0047

From upelluri at gmail.com  Mon May 18 13:40:46 2015
From: upelluri at gmail.com (Aaron Macks)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 13:40:46 -0400
Subject: [SCA-Dance] An Interesting Welsh tune list from 1595
In-Reply-To: <CAG=wCP=E5SRScCHPm_s74sMaPqFY87BNBWA3UM_hkUO_y4LHJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG=wCP=E5SRScCHPm_s74sMaPqFY87BNBWA3UM_hkUO_y4LHJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <555A241E.40106@gmail.com>

If anyone is more interested in that source, Sally Harper published a
massive article on it in 2005 in the Royal Musical Association's
Research Chronicle ( #38, pp45-98).  It includes a complete rundown on
the people involved with Lleweni and history, where possible, on the tunes

Gun?ormr

On 5/16/15 11:44 PM, Sarah Scroggie wrote:
> I just bumped into this list of tunes from  randomly searching "the shaking
> of the sheets" - I had not seen this before - so I thought all of you also
> might not have seen it -  and it has an extraordinary number of tune names
> that correspond to Playford tune names some 50 years later...
> 
> http://heatherrosejones.com/welshfaqs/music.html#Playlist
> 
>   Emma
> 
> 
> 

-- 
_______________________________________________________
Aaron Macks(aaronm at wiglaf.org) [http://www.wiglaf.org/~aaronm ]
My sheep has seven gall bladders, that makes me the King of the Universe!

From kwdsviii at gmail.com  Mon May 18 10:14:26 2015
From: kwdsviii at gmail.com (Urraca Yriarte)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 14:14:26 -0000
Subject: [SCA-Dance] An Interesting Welsh tune list from 1595
In-Reply-To: <CAG=wCP=E5SRScCHPm_s74sMaPqFY87BNBWA3UM_hkUO_y4LHJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG=wCP=E5SRScCHPm_s74sMaPqFY87BNBWA3UM_hkUO_y4LHJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANBAMNCJa_NnOisLgpRHG-Ed-DS0UZ+bDBvq3HZ2atO8yT2Zuw@mail.gmail.com>

There have been a couple of other posts about this over the years. Janelle
Durham on July 3, 2011 posted that it is in "Music in Welsh Culture before
1650: a Study of the Principal Sources" by Sally Harper.

Emil Stecher on November 3, 1998 re-posted a post from sca-minstrels by
Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glas Vryn which included the whole quote with the
list of people and the list of dances.

Of course, the name of a tune does not guarantee that it is the same tune
we call by that name, much less that they were dancing the same dance to it
. . .

--Urraca

On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 11:44 PM, Sarah Scroggie <sarah.scroggie at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I just bumped into this list of tunes from  randomly searching "the shaking
> of the sheets" - I had not seen this before - so I thought all of you also
> might not have seen it -  and it has an extraordinary number of tune names
> that correspond to Playford tune names some 50 years later...
>
> http://heatherrosejones.com/welshfaqs/music.html#Playlist
>
>   Emma
>
>
>
> --
> Sarah Scroggie,
> Mother and Theatre technician/ set designer
>
> Cell: (519) 217 7274
> Home: (519) 940-0047
> ________________________________________________________________
> To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed
> in the To line of any response.
>
> To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org
>
> Posting guidlines on the list info page:
> https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance
> ________________________________________________________________
>