From tmcd at panix.com Sat Feb 7 01:43:00 2015 From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 00:43:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: [SCA-Dance] Rant: I want beats. I wants steps. I don't want measures. Message-ID: I'm doing a dance-step cheat sheet at the last minute, of course. I'm refreshing my memory with on-line cheat sheets ... and I'm getting frustrated with the counts that are next to the steps. I'm not a musician. I don't see the music. I don't see the measures. The musicians have their sheet music, and they play from that, and of course they should use whatever notation works best for them, and more power to their elbows. As a dancer, I hear the beat. I do steps to the beat. "Double forward". The music goes dum dum dum dum. I do step step step step (or step step step close or whatever). Four. Not two, dammit. Not one. Two and one are useless and confusing to me as a dancer. FOUR. Earl of Essex Alman? Couldn't give an expletive deleted about the 6/4 time signature. Ooze left for 3 beats, ooze right for 3 beats, 3 beats/steps forward, 3 back. If you're writing instructions with STEPS for DANCERS, please, please, by the blessed memory of John Banys I implore you, I want the count of BEATS, and any counts based on the time signature be blowed. And now I have to go back to writing up Heart's Disease, the common dance I loathe the most. And back to multiplying other people's counts by 2. DAN iel de LIN coln is RANT ing a GAIN -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com From dani at pobox.com Sat Feb 7 11:42:49 2015 From: dani at pobox.com (Dani Zweig) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 11:42:49 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Rant: I want beats. I wants steps. I don't want measures. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think you want to stay with measures. The dances in our period tend to use figures that are a measure or half-measure long. A dancer matches dance figures to musical phrases, not dance steps to individual beats or notes. The time signature isn't just for the musicians. It constrains the kind of dance you are doing, and the kind of musical phrase to which you will dance. And it's part of the vocabulary with which the musicians and dancers communicate. Beats or counts are sometimes useful when dancers are learning figures that are new to them, but they go from being an aid to being a crutch to being an obstacle, because they are not the units that are integral to the dances. (Beats really get in the way in dances where the 'melody' is just improvised - and dancers find themselves unable to dance to a different 'tune'.) - Dani On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 1:43 AM, Tim McDaniel wrote: > I'm doing a dance-step cheat sheet at the last minute, of course. > > I'm refreshing my memory with on-line cheat sheets ... > > and I'm getting frustrated with the counts that are next to the steps. > > I'm not a musician. I don't see the music. I don't see the measures. > The musicians have their sheet music, and they play from that, and of > course they should use whatever notation works best for them, and more > power to their elbows. > > As a dancer, I hear the beat. I do steps to the beat. > > "Double forward". > The music goes dum dum dum dum. > I do step step step step (or step step step close or whatever). > > Four. > > Not two, dammit. Not one. Two and one are useless and confusing > to me as a dancer. > > FOUR. > > Earl of Essex Alman? Couldn't give an expletive deleted about the 6/4 > time signature. Ooze left for 3 beats, ooze right for 3 beats, > 3 beats/steps forward, 3 back. > > If you're writing instructions with STEPS for DANCERS, please, please, > by the blessed memory of John Banys I implore you, I want the count of > BEATS, and any counts based on the time signature be blowed. > > And now I have to go back to writing up Heart's Disease, the common > dance I loathe the most. And back to multiplying other people's > counts by 2. > > DAN iel de LIN coln is RANT ing a GAIN > -- > Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > From charlene281 at gmail.com Sun Feb 8 15:34:54 2015 From: charlene281 at gmail.com (Charlene C) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 14:34:54 -0600 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Rant: I want beats. I wants steps. I don't want measures. In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: I think part of the frustration when looking at dance tabulations is they're often divorced of the music and have no indication of what time signature the music is in. Thus, when told to do a double in "2 measures / bars" the dancer doesn't know if it's a 4-count double or a 6-count double. Perronnelle From jducoeur at gmail.com Sun Feb 8 15:38:46 2015 From: jducoeur at gmail.com (Justin du coeur) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 15:38:46 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Rant: I want beats. I wants steps. I don't want measures. In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: Part of the problem is that different problems have different answers. If you are trying to understand the *steps*, most folks want to be thinking in terms of beats. If you understand the steps well and want to understand the timing of the *choreography*, then measures are much more useful and easier to grok. So I suspect that there's no one-size-fits-all answer here: it all depends on your audience... On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:34 PM, Charlene C wrote: > I think part of the frustration when looking at dance tabulations is > they're often divorced of the music and have no indication of what time > signature the music is in. Thus, when told to do a double in "2 measures / > bars" the dancer doesn't know if it's a 4-count double or a 6-count double. > > Perronnelle > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > From lindahl at pbm.com Sun Feb 8 18:57:36 2015 From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 15:57:36 -0800 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Rant: I want beats. I wants steps. I don't want measures. In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: <20150208235736.GB6608@rd.bx9.net> On Sun, Feb 08, 2015 at 02:34:54PM -0600, Charlene C wrote: > I think part of the frustration when looking at dance tabulations is > they're often divorced of the music and have no indication of what time > signature the music is in. Thus, when told to do a double in "2 measures / > bars" the dancer doesn't know if it's a 4-count double or a 6-count double. Yes, it's definitely the case that the tabulation should mention the time signature -- obvious for ECD, not so obvious for most other genres. -- Gregory From alexbclark at pennswoods.net Sun Feb 8 20:30:31 2015 From: alexbclark at pennswoods.net (Alexander Clark) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 20:30:31 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Rant: I want beats. I wants steps. I don't want measures. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The usual way to do Earl of Essex, by the sources, is a single to each side (probably in two beats per single), then double forward and double backward. And I don't recall that it was called an alman. -- Henry/Alex On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 1:43 AM, Tim McDaniel wrote: > I'm doing a dance-step cheat sheet at the last minute, of course. > > I'm refreshing my memory with on-line cheat sheets ... > > and I'm getting frustrated with the counts that are next to the steps. > > I'm not a musician. I don't see the music. I don't see the measures. > The musicians have their sheet music, and they play from that, and of > course they should use whatever notation works best for them, and more > power to their elbows. > > As a dancer, I hear the beat. I do steps to the beat. > > "Double forward". > The music goes dum dum dum dum. > I do step step step step (or step step step close or whatever). > > Four. > > Not two, dammit. Not one. Two and one are useless and confusing > to me as a dancer. > > FOUR. > > Earl of Essex Alman? Couldn't give an expletive deleted about the 6/4 > time signature. Ooze left for 3 beats, ooze right for 3 beats, > 3 beats/steps forward, 3 back. > > If you're writing instructions with STEPS for DANCERS, please, please, > by the blessed memory of John Banys I implore you, I want the count of > BEATS, and any counts based on the time signature be blowed. > > And now I have to go back to writing up Heart's Disease, the common > dance I loathe the most. And back to multiplying other people's > counts by 2. > > DAN iel de LIN coln is RANT ing a GAIN > -- > Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > From upelluri at gmail.com Sun Feb 8 20:41:32 2015 From: upelluri at gmail.com (Aaron Macks) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 20:41:32 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Rant: I want beats. I wants steps. I don't want measures. In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: <54D8104C.6020305@gmail.com> In the sources it's just called a "Measure", no other genre seems attached to it GunDormr On 2/8/15 8:30 PM, Alexander Clark wrote: > The usual way to do Earl of Essex, by the sources, is a single to each side > (probably in two beats per single), then double forward and double > backward. And I don't recall that it was called an alman. > -- _______________________________________________________ Aaron Macks(aaronm at wiglaf.org) [http://www.wiglaf.org/~aaronm ] My sheep has seven gall bladders, that makes me the King of the Universe! From eclectic at mit.edu Sun Feb 8 22:35:09 2015 From: eclectic at mit.edu (Michael Bergman) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 22:35:09 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Rant: I want beats. I wants steps. I don't want measures. In-Reply-To: <54D8104C.6020305@gmail.com> References:

<54D8104C.6020305@gmail.com> Message-ID: My preferred notation is to give both bars and counts. That *does* fit all, but it's extra trouble for the person writing the description, as well as taking up more space. --Harald Longfellow Mike Bergman www.prospecthillforge.com www.vintagedancers.org/teadance www.isebastiani.com reply-to: eclectic at mit.edu On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 8:41 PM, Aaron Macks wrote: > In the sources it's just called a "Measure", no other genre seems > attached to it > GunDormr > > On 2/8/15 8:30 PM, Alexander Clark wrote: > > The usual way to do Earl of Essex, by the sources, is a single to each > side > > (probably in two beats per single), then double forward and double > > backward. And I don't recall that it was called an alman. > > > > -- > _______________________________________________________ > Aaron Macks(aaronm at wiglaf.org) [http://www.wiglaf.org/~aaronm ] > My sheep has seven gall bladders, that makes me the King of the Universe! > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > From tmcd at panix.com Mon Feb 9 02:39:29 2015 From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 01:39:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: [SCA-Dance] Rant: I want beats. I wants steps. I don't want measures. In-Reply-To: <54D8104C.6020305@gmail.com> References:

<54D8104C.6020305@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/8/15 8:30 PM, Alexander Clark wrote: > The usual way to do Earl of Essex, by the sources, is a single to > each side (probably in two beats per single), then double forward > and double backward. http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Earl_of_Essex_Measure.html says A duble forward one single backe iiij times// Singles syde a duble forward reprynce backe MS Rawlinson Poet. 108, Bodleian Library, as transcribed by Wilson. http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/ioc/concord.html has a lot of transcriptions, all but one like that. In the music I've heard, that allows all the steps as written, but then the doubling doesn't fit with the music -- you start doubling forward in the middle of a phrase, and it feels very awkward and unnatural to me. > And I don't recall that it was called an alman. Apparently. I'm just used to it being lumped in with a couple of Inns of Court compilation with some almans, and I was taught it and done it as using doubles like almans. Danielis de Lindonio -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com From mrailing2 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 12:45:48 2015 From: mrailing2 at yahoo.com (Mary Railing) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 17:45:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [SCA-Dance] Rant: I want beats. I wants steps. I don't want measures. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <129219303.1244956.1423503948186.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I don't think there is an easy, consistent answer to this problem. (The old dance masters weren't too good about this either, which is one reason their instructions are often hard to interpret.) Sometimes on my handouts I include notations like "bar=6/8" to let people know which note I am counting in my instructions, especially for dances that change tempo. --Urraca From: Tim McDaniel To: SCA Dance Sent: Saturday, February 7, 2015 1:43 AM Subject: [SCA-Dance] Rant: I want beats. I wants steps. I don't want measures. I'm doing a dance-step cheat sheet at the last minute, of course. I'm refreshing my memory with on-line cheat sheets ... and I'm getting frustrated with the counts that are next to the steps. I'm not a musician.? I don't see the music.? I don't see the measures. The musicians have their sheet music, and they play from that, and of course they should use whatever notation works best for them, and more power to their elbows. As a dancer, I hear the beat.? I do steps to the beat. "Double forward". The music goes dum dum dum dum. I do step step step step (or step step step close or whatever). Four. Not two, dammit.? Not one.? Two and one are useless and confusing to me as a dancer. FOUR. Earl of Essex Alman?? Couldn't give an expletive deleted about the 6/4 time signature.? Ooze left for 3 beats, ooze right for 3 beats, 3 beats/steps forward, 3 back. If you're writing instructions with STEPS for DANCERS, please, please, by the blessed memory of John Banys I implore you, I want the count of BEATS, and any counts based on the time signature be blowed. And now I have to go back to writing up Heart's Disease, the common dance I loathe the most.? And back to multiplying other people's counts by 2. DAN iel de LIN coln is RANT ing a GAIN -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com ________________________________________________________________ To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed in the To line of any response. To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org Posting guidlines on the list info page: https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance ________________________________________________________________ From tmcd at panix.com Sun Feb 15 21:29:58 2015 From: tmcd at panix.com (tmcd at panix.com) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 20:29:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: [SCA-Dance] Dance to "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus - Mediaeval Baebes"? Message-ID: Maybe it's my imagination, but I have a slight feeling that the tune "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus" by Mediaeval Baebes (e.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7_d0jJL7S4 ; I bought a copy) has an SCA dance associated with it. Does this ring any bells or is this another misfiring set of neurons? http://easpringstede.net/rites-and-rituals/so-treiben-wir-den-winter-aus-thus-we-drive-the-winter-out/ says "The 16th century German song 'So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus' ('Thus We Drive the Winter Out') describes an ancient tradition among Europeans." Well, other pages say south Germans. My group does a performance dance at the Candlemas event, around Fenruary 2, which is often enough near the start of spring in Austin, TX, so dancing to this tune something that looks good visually would be of some thematic interest. Daniel de Lincolnia -- Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com From lindahl at pbm.com Sun Feb 15 21:40:47 2015 From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 18:40:47 -0800 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Dance to "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus - Mediaeval Baebes"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150216024047.GD9309@rd.bx9.net> On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 08:29:58PM -0600, tmcd at panix.com wrote: > Maybe it's my imagination, but I have a slight feeling that the tune > "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus" by Mediaeval Baebes > (e.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7_d0jJL7S4 ; I bought a copy) > has an SCA dance associated with it. Does this ring any bells or is > this another misfiring set of neurons? Their music is all from before when we have choreographies. So, no. -- Gregory From charlene281 at gmail.com Sun Feb 15 21:42:57 2015 From: charlene281 at gmail.com (Charlene C) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 20:42:57 -0600 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Dance to "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus - Mediaeval Baebes"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 8:29 PM, wrote: > Maybe it's my imagination, but I have a slight feeling that the tune > "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus" by Mediaeval Baebes > (e.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7_d0jJL7S4 ; I bought a copy) > has an SCA dance associated with it. Does this ring any bells or is > this another misfiring set of neurons? > > The comments for the video say the tune is So Spricht Das Leben. Here's a nice vocal version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqsnoLxtyvQ Perronnelle From david.a.learmonth at gmail.com Sun Feb 15 23:04:00 2015 From: david.a.learmonth at gmail.com (David Learmonth) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 23:04:00 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Dance to "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus - Mediaeval Baebes"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I took a listen, but did not recognize this piece as a dance I knew. It certainly had some portions of the phrasing that sounded quite feasible for creating a choreography though. Perhaps somewhere in the SCA someone has written a dance for it? That's my best guess. (that, or it just had some of the musical queues that would make one feel like they should be dancing to it). :) Darius On 15 February 2015 at 21:29, wrote: > Maybe it's my imagination, but I have a slight feeling that the tune > "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus" by Mediaeval Baebes > (e.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7_d0jJL7S4 ; I bought a copy) > has an SCA dance associated with it. Does this ring any bells or is > this another misfiring set of neurons? > > > http://easpringstede.net/rites-and-rituals/so-treiben-wir-den-winter-aus-thus-we-drive-the-winter-out/ > says "The 16th century German song 'So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus' > ('Thus We Drive the Winter Out') describes an ancient tradition among > Europeans." Well, other pages say south Germans. My group does a > performance dance at the Candlemas event, around Fenruary 2, which is > often enough near the start of spring in Austin, TX, so dancing to > this tune something that looks good visually would be of some thematic > interest. > > Daniel de Lincolnia > -- > Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > From john.white at drexel.edu Sun Feb 15 23:20:39 2015 From: john.white at drexel.edu (White,John) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 04:20:39 +0000 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Dance to "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus - Mediaeval Baebes"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> So, it's not "Drive the Cold Winter Away"? \\Dafydd C ________________________________________ Maybe it's my imagination, but I have a slight feeling that the tune "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus" by Mediaeval Baebes (e.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7_d0jJL7S4 ; I bought a copy) has an SCA dance associated with it. Does this ring any bells or is this another misfiring set of neurons? http://easpringstede.net/rites-and-rituals/so-treiben-wir-den-winter-aus-thus-we-drive-the-winter-out/ says "The 16th century German song 'So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus' ('Thus We Drive the Winter Out') describes an ancient tradition among Europeans." Well, other pages say south Germans. Daniel de Lincolnia From david.a.learmonth at gmail.com Sun Feb 15 23:48:52 2015 From: david.a.learmonth at gmail.com (David Learmonth) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 23:48:52 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Dance to "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus - Mediaeval Baebes"? In-Reply-To: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: Oh, I'm not sure. You'd be more the expert there Dafydd. (I still haven't dances All the ECD) :)\ Listening to this one, it is similar, but I can't quite tell if it is the same: http://youtu.be/dcvyiP3YLF8 When listening to the phrasing of the original, I was certainly thinking about ECD. Darius On 15 February 2015 at 23:20, White,John wrote: > So, it's not "Drive the Cold Winter Away"? > > \\Dafydd C > ________________________________________ > Maybe it's my imagination, but I have a slight feeling that the tune > "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus" by Mediaeval Baebes > (e.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7_d0jJL7S4 ; I bought a copy) > has an SCA dance associated with it. Does this ring any bells or is > this another misfiring set of neurons? > > > http://easpringstede.net/rites-and-rituals/so-treiben-wir-den-winter-aus-thus-we-drive-the-winter-out/ > says "The 16th century German song 'So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus' > ('Thus We Drive the Winter Out') describes an ancient tradition among > Europeans." Well, other pages say south Germans. > > Daniel de Lincolnia > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > From tmcd at panix.com Mon Feb 16 00:20:00 2015 From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 23:20:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Feb 2015, White,John wrote: > So, it's not "Drive the Cold Winter Away"? http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/playford_1651/046small.html http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~white/ECD/drivewinter.html http://round.soc.srcf.net/dances/cdb/cdb6/drive Oooer! A Christmas carol that dates to 1625 (hey, only 24 years out of period!), though I don't know whether the Playford tune is the same as at http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/drive_the_cold_winter_away.htm )! The leading around might look very nice when we dance the candle dance at Candlemas: the dancers hold candles and have the only light in the hall, so whirling geometrics work well. It's USA, so the verses are no prob (and not setty-turny, bonus). The choruses are (1) men do it, (2) women do it, (3) same as 1. Except I can't figure out one bit, the instructions for the first man / woman. "First man backe a D. then goe downe between the rest and turne the last Wo but one then the last, and stay there while the other men go between the 2. and the third We. and goe toward the left hand and fall downe to the first man _._" - They can't all be facing the head of the hall as after "Leade up all a D. forwards and back", because they do it after siding and arming too when they're facing their partners. - If man 1 is facing his partner and backs a double from her, I don't see how he could then go down the middle (I interpret "btween the rest" as being between the line of men and the line of women), because it doesn't say that he goes forward again and especially because the entire line of men are, I think, filing along in the way. Unless they don't move until he's all the way at the bottom, which is kind of implied by the wording, but we'd want to speed that up for a performance. - So a zero-time turn left to face the head of the hall + left 30 degrees, back a double between the two lines (couple 2 warning/shoving him if he got the angle wrong), then the men start moving while the first man completes the turn to walk down to woman N-1? Anything seems awkward if not impossible. What am I missing? Any live-fire notes? Danyell de Lyncoln -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com From John.Garden at aph.gov.au Mon Feb 16 01:01:36 2015 From: John.Garden at aph.gov.au (Garden, John (DPS)) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 06:01:36 +0000 Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: A few curiosities in Playford's dance instructions led me to reconstruct the dance as once intended as not being 'for as many as will' as the Playford's text states, but as for 3 couples. It solves some of the problems and creates a great effect. In '1B1': First man backe a D. [possible to take hands with 2M] then [with other men trailing behind him] goe downe between the rest and [left hand] turne the last Wo but one [i.e. 2 woman] then [right hand turn] the last [woman, i.e. 3W, and fall into last place on man's side], and stay there while the other men [led by the 2nd man follow 1M and] go between the 2. and the third We. [i.e. through the same gap the 1st man went] and goe toward the left hand [i.e. up the outside of woman 2 and in an acw arc across the top of the set] and fall downe to the first man [so the men's line is inverted] . Then do it 'upside down' in 1B2, then have the women do the counterpart in 2B1&2 etc. There are four reasons for seeing a three couple set as the appropriate (and time saving) formation. Firstly, the feature figure doesn't really involves the same 2 end couples leading most of the action. Secondly, there is no progression of leadership called for down the line. Thirdly, if the line is any longer than 3 couples you are struggling to fit the whole-set figure the whole-set figure into a single playing of the tune. Fourthly, and most importantly, you can then capture an element which I think is intended but unstated-that is have the 1st man go through the same 'gap' in the woman's line as the 2nd and 3rd man (and ditto for the women when it is their turn to weave). This is stated at one point and some commentators have thought it a mistake, but when you do this, with the 1st man (or woman) going first, the others of the same gender can dance as if following them-indeed can even start out holding hands in a line with them. When the 1st dancer goes around the first corner, the others all follow but then 'sling' off to continue on the outside of the set on that same trajectory while the 1st dancer doubles around on the inside and goes back through the same gap to turn the end dancer on the opposite hand and end up coming in from a different direction to meet the 2nd dancer. It becomes a bit like the sheepskin hey in Picking of Sticks. The only puzzle remaining is the one you've just alluded to: why the first man needs to preface his weave with a fall back. Could this be an invitation for him to momentarily take near hand with the second man so as to lead him through the gap and then catapult him onward as he turns the middle lady? Is it perhaps a relic of the back and forward that often precedes a hey on one's own side (though here the weave is on the other side)? Anyhow, I've led this reconstruction to very good effect and it will appear in Volume IV of the new edition of my Historic Dance series due out next month. (P.S. Not to be confused with my Christmas Carol Dance Book which has a 'Drive the Cold Winters Away' dance I wrote in a later style to go to the carol-which is usually sung with just one B, where the Playford dance needs two Bs). Have fun and however you do the dance I hope it helps drive the winter away (here in Australia I tend to do a dance to the tune more at Christmas time.... and we have to imagine the cold winter). John Gardiner-Garden. www.earthlydelights.com.au -----Original Message----- From: sca-dance-bounces+john.garden=aph.gov.au at sca-dance.org [mailto:sca-dance-bounces+john.garden=aph.gov.au at sca-dance.org] On Behalf Of Tim McDaniel Sent: Monday, 16 February 2015 4:20 PM To: sca-dance at sca-dance.org Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" On Mon, 16 Feb 2015, White,John wrote: > So, it's not "Drive the Cold Winter Away"? http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/playford_1651/046small.html http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~white/ECD/drivewinter.html http://round.soc.srcf.net/dances/cdb/cdb6/drive Oooer! A Christmas carol that dates to 1625 (hey, only 24 years out of period!), though I don't know whether the Playford tune is the same as at http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/drive_the_cold_winter_away.htm )! The leading around might look very nice when we dance the candle dance at Candlemas: the dancers hold candles and have the only light in the hall, so whirling geometrics work well. It's USA, so the verses are no prob (and not setty-turny, bonus). The choruses are (1) men do it, (2) women do it, (3) same as 1. Except I can't figure out one bit, the instructions for the first man / woman. "First man backe a D. then goe downe between the rest and turne the last Wo but one then the last, and stay there while the other men go between the 2. and the third We. and goe toward the left hand and fall downe to the first man _._" - They can't all be facing the head of the hall as after "Leade up all a D. forwards and back", because they do it after siding and arming too when they're facing their partners. - If man 1 is facing his partner and backs a double from her, I don't see how he could then go down the middle (I interpret "btween the rest" as being between the line of men and the line of women), because it doesn't say that he goes forward again and especially because the entire line of men are, I think, filing along in the way. Unless they don't move until he's all the way at the bottom, which is kind of implied by the wording, but we'd want to speed that up for a performance. - So a zero-time turn left to face the head of the hall + left 30 degrees, back a double between the two lines (couple 2 warning/shoving him if he got the angle wrong), then the men start moving while the first man completes the turn to walk down to woman N-1? Anything seems awkward if not impossible. What am I missing? Any live-fire notes? Danyell de Lyncoln -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com ________________________________________________________________ To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed in the To line of any response. To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org Posting guidlines on the list info page: https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance ________________________________________________________________ Important Notice: If you have received this email by mistake, please advise the sender and delete the message and attachments immediately. This email, including attachments, may contain confidential, sensitive, legally privileged and/or copyright information. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Please consider the environment before printing this email. From tmcd at panix.com Mon Feb 16 02:02:27 2015 From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 01:02:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: > "First man backe a D. then goe downe between the rest and turne the > last Wo but one then the last, and stay there while the other men go > between the 2. and the third We. and goe toward the left hand and fall > downe to the first man _._" On Mon, 16 Feb 2015, Garden, John (DPS) wrote: > A few curiosities in Playford's dance instructions led me to > reconstruct the dance as once intended as not being 'for as many as > will' as the Playford's text states, but as for 3 couples. I did a bit of looking at Lovelace and MS Sloane 3858. As I recall, for the few dances I looked at, Playford was "for 3 couples" when Lovelace could be "for 3 or 4 couples" or "for 4 or more couples" or whatever. "Drive the Cold Winter Away" might be one of the rarer places where Playford allows the flexibility of Lovelace? I'm going to have to work with paper or coins to try to figure out your suggestion fully. I think the major sticking point in any reconstruction is to figure out whether any particular "turn" means a full turn or a half turn <=> which hand is being turned by <=> which people someone is walking between. A thought just hit me: first man might be backing a D. from *man 2*. (Hey, it's the only direction I hadn't considered so far. Except for man 1 backing into woman 1.) In the Banys/Gresley dances, Armyn has A hanging back from B and C with effect that, when they start the final hey, A can start the hey at the same moment as B and C. But that wouldn't have the same effect here, unless the other men were to follow the leader through this point a double forward/back of the line -- this would give man 1 4 extra beats to do ... something? So I think this thought that just hit me may need to be thrown back. Danet de Linccolne -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com From John.Garden at aph.gov.au Mon Feb 16 02:10:38 2015 From: John.Garden at aph.gov.au (Garden, John (DPS)) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 07:10:38 +0000 Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: All good thought grist to the mill. John garden at earthlydelights.com.au -----Original Message----- From: sca-dance-bounces+john.garden=aph.gov.au at sca-dance.org [mailto:sca-dance-bounces+john.garden=aph.gov.au at sca-dance.org] On Behalf Of Tim McDaniel Sent: Monday, 16 February 2015 6:02 PM To: sca-dance at sca-dance.org Subject: Re: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" .... A thought just hit me: first man might be backing a D. from *man 2*. (Hey, it's the only direction I hadn't considered so far. Except for man 1 backing into woman 1.) In the Banys/Gresley dances, Armyn has A hanging back from B and C with effect that, when they start the final hey, A can start the hey at the same moment as B and C. But that wouldn't have the same effect here, unless the other men were to follow the leader through this point a double forward/back of the line -- this would give man 1 4 extra beats to do ... something? So I think this thought that just hit me may need to be thrown back. Danet de Linccolne -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com ________________________________________________________________ To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed in the To line of any response. To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org Posting guidlines on the list info page: https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance ________________________________________________________________ Important Notice: If you have received this email by mistake, please advise the sender and delete the message and attachments immediately. This email, including attachments, may contain confidential, sensitive, legally privileged and/or copyright information. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Please consider the environment before printing this email. From tmcd at panix.com Wed Feb 18 00:18:01 2015 From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 23:18:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: "Drive the Cold Winter Away" http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/playford_1651/046small.html http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~white/ECD/drivewinter.html http://round.soc.srcf.net/dances/cdb/cdb6/drive Does anyone have a good danceable version of this? The second link above has "Country Dances by the Broadside Band. This tape's version has an AABBBBx3 structure (the 'B's could just be very long, so really only BB), which should work with this reconstruction." Actually, what I just downloaded from Amazon, supposedly from The Broadside Band The English Dancing Master: Drive the Cold Winter Away is AABB, 13 repetitions. The total time is 6:13, which is way longer than any USA ECD dance I've heard. (I hear A as 8 beats, B as 16 beats, AABB is about 0:28. I found it hard to distinguish A from B without referring to the Playford reproduction music in the first link above.) Mind you, the tempo is good, which is much more than can be said about the other renditions I heard, which tended to be for listening and maybe half the speed you'd want to dance. So I could do my usual struggles with the Audacity program to chop out sections, but I'd rather not. Also, I don't know how much B to have for each chorus. Dafydd Cyhoeddwr's saying AABBBB would give 16-beat verses, which works fine for USA. That would give 32 beats for each sex's chorus, 16 beats for each half of each sex's chorus, but since I've not tried with real dancers or ever settled on a way to turn, I don't know how much time would be useful -- if I remember Picking of Sticks right, we took 16 beats for person 1 to finish the sheepskin hay and circle back to the head of their side (though that took a bit of pushing it). (Dayfdd says "the rest of the men in a line begin a figure that they have four measures to complete", but he doesn't bother to mention how long a "measure" is or give beat counts for anything here -- if it's 4 beats per measure, our timings if not our repetition counts agree.) Danet de Linccolne -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com From tmcd at panix.com Wed Feb 18 01:19:07 2015 From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 00:19:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, Tim McDaniel wrote: > (Dayfdd says "the rest of the men in a line begin a figure that they > have four measures to complete", but he doesn't bother to mention > how long a "measure" is or give beat counts for anything here -- if > it's 4 beats per measure, our timings if not our repetition counts > agree.) Before I get flamed for ignorance: I just checked the Terp booklet and almost all the English Country dances are listed as "== in 4 ==". But I'm not a musician -- I took a couple of years of music in middle school decades ago, and the reproduction of Playford doesn't look entirely like the modern notation I learned, so I'm not at all at home with music. Danielis de Lindocollino -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com From penelopemillar at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 19:38:44 2015 From: penelopemillar at gmail.com (Penelope Millar) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 19:38:44 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Dance to "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus - Mediaeval Baebes"? In-Reply-To: References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: Drive the Cold Winter Away is one of my favorite songs. :) Listening to the Medieval Babes version posted, I think you'd have trouble doing the Playford dance to it - although I can hear where the melodies are related, it isn't the exact same tune or repeat structure. Still, you might be able to make the music and dance work together. ECD is often easy to dance to other tunes as long as you have the right rhythm. Helena Hrolfsdottir On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:48 PM, David Learmonth < david.a.learmonth at gmail.com> wrote: > Oh, I'm not sure. You'd be more the expert there Dafydd. (I still haven't > dances All the ECD) :)\ > > Listening to this one, it is similar, but I can't quite tell if it is the > same: > http://youtu.be/dcvyiP3YLF8 > > When listening to the phrasing of the original, I was certainly thinking > about ECD. > > Darius > > > On 15 February 2015 at 23:20, White,John wrote: > > > So, it's not "Drive the Cold Winter Away"? > > > > \\Dafydd C > > ________________________________________ > > Maybe it's my imagination, but I have a slight feeling that the tune > > "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus" by Mediaeval Baebes > > (e.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7_d0jJL7S4 ; I bought a copy) > > has an SCA dance associated with it. Does this ring any bells or is > > this another misfiring set of neurons? > > > > > > > http://easpringstede.net/rites-and-rituals/so-treiben-wir-den-winter-aus-thus-we-drive-the-winter-out/ > > says "The 16th century German song 'So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus' > > ('Thus We Drive the Winter Out') describes an ancient tradition among > > Europeans." Well, other pages say south Germans. > > > > Daniel de Lincolnia > > ________________________________________________________________ > > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is > listed > > in the To line of any response. > > > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > From john.white at drexel.edu Wed Feb 18 10:25:14 2015 From: john.white at drexel.edu (White,John) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 15:25:14 +0000 Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230036697@MB4.drexel.edu> > From: Tim McDaniel > > On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, Tim McDaniel wrote: > > (Dayfdd says "the rest of the men in a line begin a figure that they > > have four measures to complete", but he doesn't bother to mention how > > long a "measure" is or give beat counts for anything here -- if it's 4 > > beats per measure, our timings if not our repetition counts > > agree.) > > Before I get flamed for ignorance: > I just checked the Terp booklet and almost all the English Country dances are > listed as "== in 4 ==". > But I'm not a musician -- I took a couple of years of music in middle school > decades ago, and the reproduction of Playford doesn't look entirely like the > modern notation I learned, so I'm not at all at home with music. > > Danielis de Lindocollino > -- My understanding of the ECD genre as a whole, at least up until 1651 or thereabouts, is that every step-figure (double, single, side, arm, set, turn, etc) takes either four beats (one measure/bar), two beats (half a measure/bar), or some multiple of a full four beat Measure/bar (while siding is usually one measure/4 beats to go in, and one measure/4 beats to return to place, arming is usually described as 'walk in a circle for two measures/8 beats', although if the music is sufficiently evocative, you will see dancers make note of the end of the first measure with a little dip or stomp or something that indicates that it is two measures of four beats each). This, I believe, is a fairly universal understanding, though the rule eventually changes as new steps and measure counts came into vogue (Hole in the Wall is supposed to be done with minuet steps - you cannot count 1-2-3-4 if you are doing it right, which the SCA does not do). (Note that I do understand that much of the music is transcribed so that each measure of music is two beats, which means that two measures makes one "dance" measure of four beats. I also know, empirically, that it doesn't matter, because you never end up with half-measures so you can count 1-2-3-4 all the way through without losing the beat structure or the dance structure. Though if you do, you may be doing it wrong.) Being that I have an understanding of music (many years of piano lessons, some flute, some English Horn, and five years of trombone in junior and senior high school), some of these things are second nature to me - beats/rhythm especially. It is one of those "never thought about it" things when putting together dance instruction sheets, like not describing a double (step, step, step, close), etc. The idea that "everyone knows" is never correct, even though it influenced the dance manuals/manuscripts wherein we find ECDs (Playford, Lovelace/Church, Sloane) to the point that only Playford, and then only accidentally, actually describes that siding and arming changes sides when done in a verse! Anyway - yes, my ECD dance instruction sheets are written with the implied idea that a measure or bar is 4 beats. Perhaps next time I re-do the entire thing, I'll either put together a preface page like Lovelace/Church did, with these assumptions spelled out, or just note on every dance what the measure structure is that I am referring to. (Note also that I believe (because my memory is just that bad) that the numbers next to the steps are always full-4-beat measures for ECD, unless there is a reason to get down to the individual step counts (which there seldom is)). \\Dafydd C From John.Garden at aph.gov.au Wed Feb 18 19:18:10 2015 From: John.Garden at aph.gov.au (Garden, John (DPS)) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 00:18:10 +0000 Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230036697@MB4.drexel.edu> References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230036697@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: Just an aside to Dayfdd's aside, Hole in the Wall (in Dancing Master editions from 1695 to 1728) is indeed a good example of how new steps and rhythms came into vogue (and this fault line for change of fashion falls pretty clearly in those dance manuals around the mid 1670s-though with lots of exceptions each side) and mentioning the minuet step in connection with that dance is a good antidote to the belief you need to do the dance with slow walking steps, but I might suggest that the minuet step (in any of its possible forms- as there were several different patterns that could be deployed at will - was only one of the possible steps with which it might have been enjoyed and not necessarily the main possibility. Others possibilities are: 1) are a slow pas de bourr?e with a (1) right, (2) left, (3) right and pli?, then the same stating with the other foot-all with lots of movement on the vertical axis so good for filling out music 2) a courante step sequence-a simple one being (1) demi-coup? right, (2) gliss? left and (3) jet? right-then the same starting other foot-and there were lots of others as well and many perfect for filling out newly fashionable 3/2 tunes (with the courant, not in the Arbeau form but in its post 1630 form, being the most fashionable couples dance of the mid to late 17th century and one which any dancer going off to an upper class social would be expected to know). 3) a series of 3 step-hops to a bar, i.e. elegant skipping in triple time. This is not far removed from the series of demi-contretemps, (hop-steps) which Feuillet recommends as a staple step for weavey country dances, and step-hops were certainly associated with hornpipes (and though in triple time the Hole in the Wall tune was regarded by contemporaries as a form of hornpipe - what we call a 'Purcellian hornpipe'- and was actually published in 1695 as 'Air VIII Hornpipe'). Step-hops were certainly regard as the main step for country dancing by the anonymous dancing master 'A.D.' in his 1764 book. The hop does not have to be pronounced. 4) any combination of any of the above-plus other useful steps such as the sissone (to start a turning pattern), a full contretemp sequence (hop-step-step inside 1 bar) and assembl? to conclude a pattern. There's ample testimony to the fact that steps in country dances were varied and improvised across all periods. When contemporary commentators declare there were no rules for steps they didn't mean there were no steps, just that they were mixed at the dancer's pleasure. In baroque times a good dancer enjoying a country dance might have let different part of the tune and figure suggest different patterns, and might vary these again on the repeat. I myself, dance friends and other dancers interested in historical dance of the period would do no less today. So though I fully concur with Dafyddd that the implied musical and step unit for most ECD up to 1651 is the 4 beat one (and its useful of him to point this out), I might also (not inconsistently) suggest that good dancers at courtly balls in pre-1651 England might also have thrown in a range of steps and the musicians a range of musical interpretations (of the sort you would see in contemporary Italian balleti) when they felt the tune and figure suited. Large amounts of the early English country dance repertoire might have its feet most firmly in a double-dominated figured almain tradition, but lots also clearly had links to known Italian dances, Italian tunes and to Stuart masques benefiting from contributions from continental choreographers. Think also of all those continental musicians playing in the English court-some had probably been brought up not turning single with a plain double but with a spezzato and cadenza. Think of the mention in Playford manuals of cryptic moves such as 'open and close', and some of the cryptic pace changes between parts in some more showy dances. So the understanding posited is very good as a general rule to help people understand how a lot of the music and dance tied together-but I'd recommend people always keep an open mind on the variety of practise that may have been deemed appropriate in different circumstances. John Gardiner-Garden. www.earthlydelights.com -new edition of my 10 Volume Historic Dance series is due in March and the first 4 or 5 volumes should be of great interest to Renaissance dancers, not just for the history and hundreds of dance reconstructions but also for the hundreds of pages exploring every conceivable source related to steps practise. Don't buy the set that is currently advertised and available-if interested in the books, let me know in an email to garden at earthlydelights.com.au and I'll let you know the day the changeover happens to the new improved and expanded edition and how you can get them discount direct from us rather than publisher. -----Original Message----- From: sca-dance-bounces+john.garden=aph.gov.au at sca-dance.org [mailto:sca-dance-bounces+john.garden=aph.gov.au at sca-dance.org] On Behalf Of White,John Sent: Thursday, 19 February 2015 2:25 AM To: sca-dance at sca-dance.org Subject: Re: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" > From: Tim McDaniel > > On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, Tim McDaniel wrote: > > (Dayfdd says "the rest of the men in a line begin a figure that they > > have four measures to complete", but he doesn't bother to mention how > > long a "measure" is or give beat counts for anything here -- if it's 4 > > beats per measure, our timings if not our repetition counts > > agree.) > > Before I get flamed for ignorance: > I just checked the Terp booklet and almost all the English Country dances are > listed as "== in 4 ==". > But I'm not a musician -- I took a couple of years of music in middle school > decades ago, and the reproduction of Playford doesn't look entirely like the > modern notation I learned, so I'm not at all at home with music. > > Danielis de Lindocollino > -- My understanding of the ECD genre as a whole, at least up until 1651 or thereabouts, is that every step-figure (double, single, side, arm, set, turn, etc) takes either four beats (one measure/bar), two beats (half a measure/bar), or some multiple of a full four beat Measure/bar (while siding is usually one measure/4 beats to go in, and one measure/4 beats to return to place, arming is usually described as 'walk in a circle for two measures/8 beats', although if the music is sufficiently evocative, you will see dancers make note of the end of the first measure with a little dip or stomp or something that indicates that it is two measures of four beats each). This, I believe, is a fairly universal understanding, though the rule eventually changes as new steps and measure counts came into vogue (Hole in the Wall is supposed to be done with minuet steps - you cannot count 1-2-3-4 if you are doing it right, which the SCA does not do). (Note that I do understand that much of the music is transcribed so that each measure of music is two beats, which means that two measures makes one "dance" measure of four beats. I also know, empirically, that it doesn't matter, because you never end up with half-measures so you can count 1-2-3-4 all the way through without losing the beat structure or the dance structure. Though if you do, you may be doing it wrong.) Being that I have an understanding of music (many years of piano lessons, some flute, some English Horn, and five years of trombone in junior and senior high school), some of these things are second nature to me - beats/rhythm especially. It is one of those "never thought about it" things when putting together dance instruction sheets, like not describing a double (step, step, step, close), etc. The idea that "everyone knows" is never correct, even though it influenced the dance manuals/manuscripts wherein we find ECDs (Playford, Lovelace/Church, Sloane) to the point that only Playford, and then only accidentally, actually describes that siding and arming changes sides when done in a verse! Anyway - yes, my ECD dance instruction sheets are written with the implied idea that a measure or bar is 4 beats. Perhaps next time I re-do the entire thing, I'll either put together a preface page like Lovelace/Church did, with these assumptions spelled out, or just note on every dance what the measure structure is that I am referring to. (Note also that I believe (because my memory is just that bad) that the numbers next to the steps are always full-4-beat measures for ECD, unless there is a reason to get down to the individual step counts (which there seldom is)). \\Dafydd C ________________________________________________________________ To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed in the To line of any response. To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org Posting guidlines on the list info page: https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance ________________________________________________________________ Important Notice: If you have received this email by mistake, please advise the sender and delete the message and attachments immediately. This email, including attachments, may contain confidential, sensitive, legally privileged and/or copyright information. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Please consider the environment before printing this email. From BILLQS at aol.com Wed Feb 18 19:40:50 2015 From: BILLQS at aol.com (BILLQS at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:40:50 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Dance to "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus - Mediaeval Baebes"? Message-ID: <1227d6.53c42f8b.42168b12@aol.com> I seem to remember dancing Drive the Cold Winter Away based on the version from the New World Renaissance Band. I don't remember any changes we made to make the dance fit the music or vica versa. -Wm Redcape In a message dated 2/18/2015 6:37:48 A.M. Central Standard Time, penelopemillar at gmail.com writes: Drive the Cold Winter Away is one of my favorite songs. :) Listening to the Medieval Babes version posted, I think you'd have trouble doing the Playford dance to it - although I can hear where the melodies are related, it isn't the exact same tune or repeat structure. Still, you might be able to make the music and dance work together. ECD is often easy to dance to other tunes as long as you have the right rhythm. Helena Hrolfsdottir On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:48 PM, David Learmonth < david.a.learmonth at gmail.com> wrote: > Oh, I'm not sure. You'd be more the expert there Dafydd. (I still haven't > dances All the ECD) :)\ > > Listening to this one, it is similar, but I can't quite tell if it is the > same: > http://youtu.be/dcvyiP3YLF8 > > When listening to the phrasing of the original, I was certainly thinking > about ECD. > > Darius > > > On 15 February 2015 at 23:20, White,John wrote: > > > So, it's not "Drive the Cold Winter Away"? > > > > \\Dafydd C > > ________________________________________ > > Maybe it's my imagination, but I have a slight feeling that the tune > > "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus" by Mediaeval Baebes > > (e.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7_d0jJL7S4 ; I bought a copy) > > has an SCA dance associated with it. Does this ring any bells or is > > this another misfiring set of neurons? > > > > > > > http://easpringstede.net/rites-and-rituals/so-treiben-wir-den-winter-aus-thus-we-drive-the-winter-out/ > > says "The 16th century German song 'So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus' > > ('Thus We Drive the Winter Out') describes an ancient tradition among > > Europeans." Well, other pages say south Germans. > > > > Daniel de Lincolnia > > ________________________________________________________________ > > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is > listed > > in the To line of any response. > > > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________ To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed in the To line of any response. To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org Posting guidlines on the list info page: https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance ________________________________________________________________ From john.white at drexel.edu Wed Feb 18 21:09:52 2015 From: john.white at drexel.edu (White,John) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 02:09:52 +0000 Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230036697@MB4.drexel.edu>, Message-ID: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230036A9E@MB4.drexel.edu> When I grow up, I want to be John Garden!!! \\Dafydd C (who will never actually have the breadth of knowledge JG has ...) ________________________________________ From: Garden, John (DPS) Just an aside to Dayfdd's aside, Hole in the Wall (in Dancing Master editions from 1695 to 1728) is indeed a good example of how new steps and rhythms came into vogue (and this fault line for change of fashion falls pretty clearly in those dance manuals around the mid 1670s-though with lots of exceptions each side) and mentioning the minuet step in connection with that dance is a good antidote to the belief you need to do the dance with slow walking steps, but I might suggest that the minuet step (in any of its possible forms- as there were several different patterns that could be deployed at will - was only one of the possible steps with which it might have been enjoyed and not necessarily the main possibility. {...} From tmcd at panix.com Wed Feb 18 22:58:50 2015 From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 21:58:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: [SCA-Dance] Dance to "So Treiben Wir Den Winter Aus - Mediaeval Baebes"? In-Reply-To: <1227d6.53c42f8b.42168b12@aol.com> References: <1227d6.53c42f8b.42168b12@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Feb 2015, BILLQS at aol.com < wrote: > I seem to remember dancing Drive the Cold Winter Away based on the > version from the New World Renaissance Band. I don't remember any > changes we made to make the dance fit the music or vica versa. I found a version on youtube. It appears to AAB, so 16 beats for the verse and 16 beats for the entire chorus. It's a bit slow. Daniel Lindum Colonia -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com From lindahl at pbm.com Thu Feb 19 01:34:51 2015 From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 22:34:51 -0800 Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230036697@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <20150219063451.GB16558@rd.bx9.net> I can report that my local ECD group danced Hole in the Head in the run up to their annual Playford Ball, and after I tried doing it with Minuet steps, just to keep my head from exploding, I was pleased that one of the other dance masters present approached me afterwards and wondered where I'd learned baroque dance. :-) I retaliated by asking if his Regency group ever danced with the right steps! (zing!) (All in good fun! He wished they could do it that way. He agrees with me that using the right steps is an important part of every dance genre.) -- Gregory From charlene281 at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 21:22:19 2015 From: charlene281 at gmail.com (Charlene C) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 20:22:19 -0600 Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:18 PM, Tim McDaniel wrote: Does anyone have a good danceable version of this? The second link > above has "Country Dances by the Broadside Band. This tape's version > has an AABBBBx3 structure (the 'B's could just be very long, so really > only BB), which should work with this reconstruction." > > Actually, what I just downloaded from Amazon, supposedly from > The Broadside Band > The English Dancing Master: Drive the Cold Winter Away > is AABB, 13 repetitions. The total time is 6:13, which is way longer > than any USA ECD dance I've heard. (I hear A as 8 beats, B as 16 > beats, AABB is about 0:28. I found it hard to distinguish A from B > without referring to the Playford reproduction music in the first link > above.) > > Mind you, the tempo is good, which is much more than can be said about > the other renditions I heard, which tended to be for listening and > maybe half the speed you'd want to dance. > > I like the tempo of this one: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005LE9D4E/ref=dm_ws_tlw_trk6 A=8 beats B=16 beats (AABB)x3 Also, for those interested, this CD has the original tune for Adsons Saraband instead of New Exchange: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005LE9D94/ref=dm_ws_tlw_trk8 (Back in the ancient times when you couldn't buy single tracks, I bought this CD just for Adsons.) Perronnelle From lgp477 at up.net Fri Feb 20 22:17:38 2015 From: lgp477 at up.net (Donna) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 22:17:38 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: On 2/20/15, Charlene C wrote: > On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:18 PM, Tim McDaniel wrote: > > Does anyone have a good danceable version of this? The second link >> above has "Country Dances by the Broadside Band. This tape's version >> has an AABBBBx3 structure (the 'B's could just be very long, so really >> only BB), which should work with this reconstruction." >> >> Actually, what I just downloaded from Amazon, supposedly from >> The Broadside Band >> The English Dancing Master: Drive the Cold Winter Away >> is AABB, 13 repetitions. The total time is 6:13, which is way longer >> than any USA ECD dance I've heard. (I hear A as 8 beats, B as 16 >> beats, AABB is about 0:28. I found it hard to distinguish A from B >> without referring to the Playford reproduction music in the first link >> above.) >> >> Mind you, the tempo is good, which is much more than can be said about >> the other renditions I heard, which tended to be for listening and >> maybe half the speed you'd want to dance. >> >> > I like the tempo of this one: > http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005LE9D4E/ref=dm_ws_tlw_trk6 > > A=8 beats > B=16 beats > (AABB)x3 > > Also, for those interested, this CD has the original tune for Adsons > Saraband instead of New Exchange: > http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005LE9D94/ref=dm_ws_tlw_trk8 > (Back in the ancient times when you couldn't buy single tracks, I bought > this CD just for Adsons.) > > > Perronnelle > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears this is true." - James Branch Cabell From tmcd at panix.com Sat Feb 21 22:21:32 2015 From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 21:21:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230036697@MB4.drexel.edu> References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230036697@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Feb 2015, White,John wrote: > My understanding of the ECD genre as a whole, at least up until 1651 > or thereabouts, is that every step-figure (double, single, side, > arm, set, turn, etc) takes either four beats (one measure/bar), two > beats (half a measure/bar), ... > This, I believe, is a fairly universal understanding, though the > rule eventually changes as new steps and measure counts came into > vogue ... > (Note that I do understand that much of the music is transcribed so > that each measure of music is two beats, which means that two > measures makes one "dance" measure of four beats. In particular, a group call The Round has a fair number of dance instructions that show up high in search-engine hits, so I hit them a lot. "duple-time music (two beats to the bar)" is noted only in the section "Notes on Calling". The dances just have two-beat measure counts. > Anyway - yes, my ECD dance instruction sheets are written with the > implied idea that a measure or bar is 4 beats. Would that were consistent between publishers. Danet de Linccolne -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com From lindahl at pbm.com Sun Feb 22 00:03:13 2015 From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 21:03:13 -0800 Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230036697@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <20150222050313.GC5075@rd.bx9.net> On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 09:21:32PM -0600, Tim McDaniel wrote: > In particular, a group call The Round has a fair number of dance > instructions that show up high in search-engine hits, so I hit them a > lot. "duple-time music (two beats to the bar)" is noted only in the > section "Notes on Calling". The dances just have two-beat measure > counts. You might note that the usual musical notation for ECD is to have 4 quarter notes during a period of time in which you take 2 steps, or 1/2 of a ECD double. Good musicians understand that this music is in "cut time" and play these quarter notes in pairs. There's no substitute for learning a little bit about music if you want to be able to read the notation for matching steps to the music. -- Gregory From rendancer at zoho.com Fri Feb 20 23:29:09 2015 From: rendancer at zoho.com (rendancer) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 20:29:09 -0800 Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <14baa5ba65a.d42c630f104049.2467287148633925443@zoho.com> Hi, There is a dance-able version of this Song. It is on a album called Shepheards Holyday by Wandering Hands This is an excellent album, you can find it on iTunes. The song is 2:33 You should check it out. The person is a Dance Laurel her name is - Sara L Bonneville, (known in the SCA as Sara de Bonneville) I also have the dance booklet that came with the CD Jeanette ---- On Fri, 20 Feb 2015 19:17:38 -0800 Donna <lgp477 at up.net> wrote ---- On 2/20/15, Charlene C <charlene281 at gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:18 PM, Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com> wrote: > > Does anyone have a good danceable version of this? The second link >> above has "Country Dances by the Broadside Band. This tape's version >> has an AABBBBx3 structure (the 'B's could just be very long, so really >> only BB), which should work with this reconstruction." >> >> Actually, what I just downloaded from Amazon, supposedly from >> The Broadside Band >> The English Dancing Master: Drive the Cold Winter Away >> is AABB, 13 repetitions. The total time is 6:13, which is way longer >> than any USA ECD dance I've heard. (I hear A as 8 beats, B as 16 >> beats, AABB is about 0:28. I found it hard to distinguish A from B >> without referring to the Playford reproduction music in the first link >> above.) >> >> Mind you, the tempo is good, which is much more than can be said about >> the other renditions I heard, which tended to be for listening and >> maybe half the speed you'd want to dance. >> >> > I like the tempo of this one: > http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005LE9D4E/ref=dm_ws_tlw_trk6 > > A=8 beats > B=16 beats > (AABB)x3 > > Also, for those interested, this CD has the original tune for Adsons > Saraband instead of New Exchange: > http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005LE9D94/ref=dm_ws_tlw_trk8 > (Back in the ancient times when you couldn't buy single tracks, I bought > this CD just for Adsons.) > > > Perronnelle > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears this is true." - James Branch Cabell ________________________________________________________________ To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed in the To line of any response. To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org Posting guidlines on the list info page: https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance ________________________________________________________________ From deborah.s.sweet at okstate.edu Thu Feb 26 10:16:47 2015 From: deborah.s.sweet at okstate.edu (Sweet, Debby) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 15:16:47 +0000 Subject: [SCA-Dance] "Drive the Cold Winter Away" In-Reply-To: <14baa5ba65a.d42c630f104049.2467287148633925443@zoho.com> References: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D230035BA7@MB4.drexel.edu> <14baa5ba65a.d42c630f104049.2467287148633925443@zoho.com> Message-ID: <4DE2BCF9FB0336448BCCB039991E8B2D26190431@STWMB01.ad.okstate.edu> Jeanette said: >Hi, There is a dance-able version of this Song. It is on a album called Shepheards Holyday by Wandering Hands > >This is an excellent album, you can find it on iTunes. The song is 2:33 > >You should check it out. The person is a Dance Laurel her name is - Sara L Bonneville, (known in the SCA as Sara de Bonneville) I also have the dance booklet that came with the CD Ohh, I picked up the album via CD Baby and was not aware that there was a dance booklet. I just picked it out because it was all ECD and had Half Hannikin and Hit and Miss. Estrill