From mrailing2 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 5 18:53:18 2015 From: mrailing2 at yahoo.com (Mary Railing) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 15:53:18 -0700 Subject: [SCA-Dance] kwds is coming soon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1428274398.87712.YahooMailBasic@web121802.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Are there any bids in the works for the *next* Known World Dance Seminar (2017)? --Urraca From tmcd at panix.com Fri Apr 17 17:57:15 2015 From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 16:57:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [SCA-Dance] The Ulm 1503 Ball Message-ID: Interesting ball at KWDS: the Ulm Ball of 1503. The people were sorted by sex on each side of the room, then sorted in order of precedence. The top people were paired and chose a dance, which everyone who willed could dance, then the next pair, und so weiter. Extra factor: the only dances were those that could have been known in 1503, so 15th C Italian, Gresley, basse dance, and a few others. A comment I heard from someone in the peer section is that they would have been willing to try a few Gresleys with someone who knew of them, but their paired one didn't know them; their paired one knew Italians, but they didn't. And by then, the most popular dances had been done -- yes, you could choose a repeat, but ... I lucked out with Petit Rose: I was able to cram a bit for it, and people around dragged me thru it. (No, of course it's not hard -- I simply had done it only a couple of times and only at the most recent Terp.) I'm wondering about ways it might be improved. I've not been to a Caroso ball, so I don't know what if anything is done there that might apply here. - a limited set of dances (like say 10), and maybe of couples to choose from them? - include ECD? - a ball class? On the list was, for example, Armynn, but we hadn't been able to get to learning that. - pairing well in advance, so we could locate each other and work out a dance? Only after did I think of Casuelle Nouvelle, which I haven't done in years but might have been able to prep for. (Nobody did a basse dance.) - the next high-ranking person might not be stuck with just one possible partner? - Calling / quick teaching reminder? One brave soul induced Newcastle, but despite doing it well in the street during the fire alarm, I and those nearby fumbled too badly after the start to do it. Danielis de Lindo -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com From mrailing2 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 18 04:30:51 2015 From: mrailing2 at yahoo.com (Mary Railing) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 10:30:51 +0200 Subject: [SCA-Dance] The Ulm 1503 Ball In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I suspect that this sort of ball, like the Caroso ball, works better in a setting where people are likely to know the same repertoire, rather than at an event where people from very different places are attending. I must admit that I was caught flatfooted by a playlist that included almost nothing that I knew. The Ulm ball that Judith was inspired by is just another example of what seems to be a common practice of taking turns choosing a dance. Because this seems to be a common practice, I see no reason not to experiment with different ways to decide who chooses next, or different ways of setting up the playlist. Drackenwald dances mostly 15th century dances, so the Ulm setting works for them. At Terpsichore, where the cool thing is late Italian, the Caroso theme works. The only thing I did not like about the Ulm ball was the need to sort people by precedent. However authentic it may be, it was time consuming and awkward. However, this is another thing that would have worked better in period when people were always aware of rank, and which would work better in an SCA setting in which more people know each other than at a Known World event. --Urraca > On Apr 17, 2015, at 11:57 PM, Tim McDaniel wrote: > > Interesting ball at KWDS: the Ulm Ball of 1503. The people were > sorted by sex on each side of the room, then sorted in order of > precedence. The top people were paired and chose a dance, which > everyone who willed could dance, then the next pair, und so weiter. > Extra factor: the only dances were those that could have been known in > 1503, so 15th C Italian, Gresley, basse dance, and a few others. > > A comment I heard from someone in the peer section is that they would > have been willing to try a few Gresleys with someone who knew of them, > but their paired one didn't know them; their paired one knew Italians, > but tihey didn't. And by then, the most popular dances had been done > -- yes, you could choose a repeat, but ... I lucked out with Petit > Rose: I was able to cram a bit for it, and people around dragged me > thru it. (No, of course it's not hard -- I simply had done it only a > couple of times and only at the most recent Terp.) > > I'm wondering about ways it might be improved. I've not been to a > Caroso ball, so I don't know what if anything is done there that might > apply here. > - a limited set of dances (like say 10), and maybe of couples to > choose from them? > - include ECD? > - a ball class? On the list was, for example, Armynn, but we hadn't > been able to get to learning that. > - pairing well in advance, so we could locate each other and work out > a dance? Only after did I think of Casuelle Nouvelle, which I > haven't done in years but might have been able to prep for. > (Nobody did a basse dance.) > - the next high-ranking person might not be stuck with just one > possible partner? > - Calling / quick teaching reminder? One brave soul induced > Newcastle, but despite doing it well in the street during the fire > alarm, I and those nearby fumbled too badly after the start to do > it. > > Danielis de Lindo > -- > Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com > > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ From judithsca at aol.com Mon Apr 20 12:20:24 2015 From: judithsca at aol.com (Rachel/Judith) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 12:20:24 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] SCA-Dance Re: Ulm Ball 1503 In-Reply-To: <14cd772f8f0-3e98-45e84@webprd-m20.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <14cd7a173e6-3e98-462d7@webprd-m20.mail.aol.com> Rachel/Judith judithsca at aol.com -----Original Message----- From: Rachel/Judith To: sca-dance Sent: Tue, Apr 21, 2015 12:29 am Subject: SCA-Dance Re: Ulm Ball 1503 Salvete! Thank you, Daniel and Urraca, for commenting on the Ulm Ball at KWDS this year. I am always looking to optimize my products! :) Regarding the comment about including non-15th c. dance in the Ulm Ball - I queried the KWDS attendees several months ago about whether they were interested in balls that were limited to a specific time range - i.e. a Caroso ball to only 16th c. material and the Ulm Ball to pre-1503 material. The only people who responded liked the idea, so I went with it - the idea was to create a specific atmosphere by limiting the time period. If one were to do their own version of the ball, they could of course choose to include on the selection list whatever dances they liked, based on whatever parameters. The Ulm ball format certainly works better with a better matched group of dancers, in terms of dance level and experience. I thought KWDS would attract dancers with experience broad/deep enough to ensure that couples shared knowledge of many of the dances on the list, but I apparently erred in my judgement. I even sent out emails and posted messages with the selection list, and posted that the ball would feature only 15th c. dance, but those messages and posts seem to have mostly gone astray. In reference to the comment on order of precedence: I think this is a matter of taste and a matter of the culture of the kingdom in which one resides, whether people are more or less aware of order of precedence now than they were then. In some kingdoms, people seem to keep a mental OP in their heads at all times, while in others, rank is disregarded utterly outside of an official court setting. In terms of liking rank as a way of choosing dances, I personally find that doing a ball by order of precedence adds to the atmosphere, dignity and authenticity of the occasion, and I know I am not alone in that. The Ulm Ball is a format that has been particularly enjoyed in Drachenwald. But then again, this is a matter of personal taste and not everyone will be happy with every item on offer. Ultimately, one will please no one by trying to please everyone, my only goal was to expose people to things they had not experienced before and hope that some of them enjoyed it. In terms of efficiency of seating people by rank, my majordomo actually went through the entire list of attendees in advance and looked up their highest ranking awards in their respective kingdom, but she ended up not using the list because she thought the method of calling people out would be more efficient. She was also falling into her role as majordomo and attempting to lend gravitas to the actual process of seating people. In retrospect, I should have taken a more active role in moving the proceedings along and instructed her to simply go by her list, calling people by name to take their place, but as you may recall, there was that unfortunate fire alarm earlier that day, and I was somewhat distracted. Much of the perceived wait to start, though, was a delay due to the fire alarm. The actual seating process only took about ten minutes once it got started. Regarding the thought about pairing people up in advance: this only works if you have a fixed attendee list, and if all attendees then actually attend and show up on time. That would have no doubt worked in 1503, when no would have dared show up late to such a ball, or miss it for anything short of serious illness or injury, but the SCA does not tend to exhibit the same mores. All it takes is one person not appearing, and then you have to rematch people on the spot - or skip over the person without their pre-arranged partner, which would be punishing that individual for their partner's transgression of tardiness. Things I would do differently next time: -Have my majordomo stick to the pre-researched list for seating people by order of precedence, calling them each by name - maybe even putting name tags on the seats in advance? -Ensure that I have a herald if my majordomo's voice is not loud enough to carry across the hall -Remind people that they have been handed a booklet of cheatsheets and to use them as needed (I did not really see anyone using the dance booklets during the event, which may not have included every dance on the ball list, but did include many of them) Thank you both again for your feedback! Judith -----Original Message----- From: sca-dance-request To: sca-dance Sent: Sun, Apr 19, 2015 1:00 am Subject: Sca-dance Digest, Vol 112, Issue 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 16:57:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Tim McDaniel SNIP A comment I heard from someone in the peer section is that they would have been willing to try a few Gresleys with someone who knew of them, but their paired one didn't know them; their paired one knew Italians, but they didn't. And by then, the most popular dances had been done -- yes, you could choose a repeat, but ... I lucked out with Petit Rose: I was able to cram a bit for it, and people around dragged me thru it. (No, of course it's not hard -- I simply had done it only a couple of times and only at the most recent Terp.) I'm wondering about ways it might be improved. I've not been to a Caroso ball, so I don't know what if anything is done there that might apply here. - a limited set of dances (like say 10), and maybe of couples to choose from them? - include ECD? - a ball class? On the list was, for example, Armynn, but we hadn't been able to get to learning that. - pairing well in advance, so we could locate each other and work out a dance? Only after did I think of Casuelle Nouvelle, which I haven't done in years but might have been able to prep for. (Nobody did a basse dance.) - the next high-ranking person might not be stuck with just one possible partner? - Calling / quick teaching reminder? SNIP Danielis de Lindo -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 10:30:51 +0200 From: Mary Railing SNIP The only thing I did not like about the Ulm ball was the need to sort people by precedent. However authentic it may be, it was time consuming and awkward. However, this is another thing that would have worked better in period when people were always aware of rank, and which would work better in an SCA setting in which more people know each other than at a Known World event. --Urraca From tmcd at panix.com Sun Apr 26 01:09:26 2015 From: tmcd at panix.com (tmcd at panix.com) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 00:09:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [SCA-Dance] Thanks for KWDS! Message-ID: I have been remiss: I want to thank those who put on Known World Dance Symposium, and those who taught. Thank you for providing a great event and for giving me so much to know (some of which I may yet retain). Denyel de Linccolne -- Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com From tmcd at panix.com Sun Apr 26 02:40:55 2015 From: tmcd at panix.com (tmcd at panix.com) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 01:40:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS Message-ID: I have some questions from KWDS, and realized I could ask the list. (And thereby ask Perronnelle, whom I was originally going to bother.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Countess Judith de Northumbria (Rachel Lorenz) Reconsidering the lilly: Gelosia, Amoroso and Belfiore She cited Smith, A. William, _15th Century Dance and Music_, as the source for the Amoroso version she taught. She called that version the "New York Public Library" version. Is there any more information on that particular source, or is it just a weird catalog number? I'm idly curious about this bit. As best I wrote it, the manuscript says that the piva is "a double that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates the dancer to it". Is this the only definition of piva, or are there similar ones from other sources? Is Amoroso's tempo quaternaria? Do I remember right, that she said that the manuals talk about one person "leading", and there are pictures of people approximately in file? Is side-by-side also attested in pictures? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bransles I'm guessing that the versions I saw there are pretty much the originals, and I've been dancing SCA alterations that make them non-period (perhaps far from it)? --- Pease Bransle: about the only version I've seen is as in http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Pease_Bransle.html "In the SCA, this dance is often danced as a partner-switching dance, with the women going past their partners in measures 15-16 to the next man in the circle. Arbeau mentions nothing of this practice." --- Horse's Bransle: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Horses_Bransle.html describes what I've danced: line of men facing line of women, men progess one place. He says "As usual, Arbeau says nothing about switching partners. In fact, the instructions for this dance are very hard to interpret; there are other interpretations which are actually radically different from this one. They generally start by having the couples standing beside each other, with both hands joined in promenade hold. The couple doubles to their left and right four times, and then the men paw and move off to the left, followed by the women. The only difference is the starting position, but the dance ends up being quite different. I believe this is the only dance in Arbeau which has the couples holding both hands." http://members.ozemail.com.au/~grayn1/Horses.html says Arbeau says "... the young man held the damsel by both hands.". But I think the version I saw at KWDS was a ring dance, all facing in? (I did run across the remarkably silly "Australian rules" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu0OQ3MXzsg . Hi, Elaine! And Jamie? Check out the end, when they went into cascarde moves.) --- Hay Bransle: I'm going to be handicapped by never having danced this YouTube videos showed two different tempos, but http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Bransle_Hay.html says 8 "sets" for the A and B section, where a "set" is single-single-double. (When calling, I tend to call "pavane" for that sequence to save time, regardless of how fast it is. Would "corante" be a better term?) http://ieee.uwaterloo.ca/praetzel/mp3-cd/cecil_2/hay_br.mp3 is off Saint Cecilia 2. How many people does the hay section accomodate in this rendition? I count 24 beats. Denyel de Lyncoln -- Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com From david.a.learmonth at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 09:46:30 2015 From: david.a.learmonth at gmail.com (David Learmonth) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 09:46:30 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi. I've just got a second with email right this moment, but I just wanted to say that I put a lot of effort into getting the current edition of the Terp book up to date with the entire Bransles section, if that helps. http://www.cynnabar.org/eurodance Link to the PDF file of edition 21 at the bottom of the page. Of course this is as best I could within the cheat note format of the terp book. But I think it is a pretty good representation. The youtube channel is mine. I plan to eventually make recordings of all of the bransles. :) Darius On 26 April 2015 at 02:40, wrote: > I have some questions from KWDS, and realized I could ask the list. > (And thereby ask Perronnelle, whom I was originally going to bother.) > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Countess Judith de Northumbria (Rachel Lorenz) > Reconsidering the lilly: Gelosia, Amoroso and Belfiore > > She cited Smith, A. William, _15th Century Dance and Music_, as the > source for the Amoroso version she taught. She called that version > the "New York Public Library" version. Is there any more information > on that particular source, or is it just a weird catalog number? > I'm idly curious about this bit. > > As best I wrote it, the manuscript says that the piva is "a double > that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates the > dancer to it". Is this the only definition of piva, or are there > similar ones from other sources? > > Is Amoroso's tempo quaternaria? > > Do I remember right, that she said that the manuals talk about one > person "leading", and there are pictures of people approximately in > file? Is side-by-side also attested in pictures? > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Bransles > > I'm guessing that the versions I saw there are pretty much the > originals, and I've been dancing SCA alterations that make them > non-period (perhaps far from it)? > > --- > > Pease Bransle: about the only version I've seen is as in > http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Pease_Bransle.html > "In the SCA, this dance is often danced as a partner-switching dance, > with the women going past their partners in measures 15-16 to the next > man in the circle. Arbeau mentions nothing of this practice." > > --- > > Horse's Bransle: > http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Horses_Bransle.html describes what > I've danced: line of men facing line of women, men progess one place. > He says "As usual, Arbeau says nothing about switching partners. In > fact, the instructions for this dance are very hard to interpret; > there are other interpretations which are actually radically different > from this one. They generally start by having the couples standing > beside each other, with both hands joined in promenade hold. The > couple doubles to their left and right four times, and then the men > paw and move off to the left, followed by the women. The only > difference is the starting position, but the dance ends up being quite > different. I believe this is the only dance in Arbeau which has the > couples holding both hands." > > http://members.ozemail.com.au/~grayn1/Horses.html > says Arbeau says "... the young man held the damsel by both hands.". > > But I think the version I saw at KWDS was a ring dance, all facing in? > > (I did run across the remarkably silly "Australian rules" > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu0OQ3MXzsg . Hi, Elaine! > And Jamie? Check out the end, when they went into cascarde moves.) > > --- > > Hay Bransle: I'm going to be handicapped by never having danced this > > YouTube videos showed two different tempos, but > http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Bransle_Hay.html says 8 "sets" for > the A and B section, where a "set" is single-single-double. (When > calling, I tend to call "pavane" for that sequence to save time, > regardless of how fast it is. Would "corante" be a better term?) > > http://ieee.uwaterloo.ca/praetzel/mp3-cd/cecil_2/hay_br.mp3 is off > Saint Cecilia 2. How many people does the hay section accomodate in > this rendition? I count 24 beats. > > Denyel de Lyncoln > -- > Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > From jducoeur at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 10:20:01 2015 From: jducoeur at gmail.com (Justin du coeur) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 10:20:01 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (Grabbing the book and answering the easy questions offhand...) On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 2:40 AM, wrote: > Countess Judith de Northumbria (Rachel Lorenz) > Reconsidering the lilly: Gelosia, Amoroso and Belfiore > > She cited Smith, A. William, _15th Century Dance and Music_, as the > source for the Amoroso version she taught. Smith is more or less the bible for 15th century Italian dance. While we've quibbled with various details over the years, it's still the comprehensive source, giving full transcription/translations of the introductions, and then (in Volume 2), giving a complete concordance of all of the versions of each dance -- all of the transcriptions side-by-side, and a single collated translation that tries to get the sense across. We have usually mostly ignored his translations for the dances (since they are a deliberate mish-mash), but having the collated Italian is wonderfully useful, since different sources for any given dance tend to give different details, and you get a better gestalt picture by looking at all of them. It has always been hard to find -- we spent ten years waiting while the damned book was in pre-print, and since then it has gone in and out of print repeatedly. But if you can get a copy, it's one of the most useful books in the field. > She called that version > the "New York Public Library" version. Is there any more information > on that particular source, or is it just a weird catalog number? > I'm idly curious about this bit. > The citation is, "New York, Public Library, Dance Collection, Lincoln Center, MGZMBZ-Res. 72-254". It is one of a number of MSS attributed to Ebreo / Ambrosio, who wrote most of the books in this repertoire. It's broadly similar to several of the others, and Smith only devotes a short section to it per se, but Judith presumably used its Italian as her specific focus for reconstructing this particular dance. I would generally agree with that practice: since dances *did* evolve during period, it's usually best to focus on one specific source for your reconstruction if you can, and use the others mainly to help disambiguate confusing passages. From judithsca at aol.com Sun Apr 26 12:19:19 2015 From: judithsca at aol.com (Rachel/Judith) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 12:19:19 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] KWDS Proceedings will be forthcoming! Message-ID: <14cf6869eca-4d4f-21f7f@webprd-m20.mail.aol.com> Salvete! Please note that the proceedings for Known World Dance 2015 will be forthcoming, to include dance class and material submitted by teachers, along with songs and materials from the Masque. Best, Judith de Northumbria, Event Steward KWDS From tmcd at panix.com Sun Apr 26 13:38:12 2015 From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 12:38:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Apr 2015, Justin du coeur wrote: > The citation is, "New York, Public Library, Dance Collection, > Lincoln Center, MGZMBZ-Res. 72-254". It is one of a number of MSS > attributed to Ebreo / Ambrosio, who wrote most of the books in this > repertoire. It's broadly similar to several of the others, and > Smith only devotes a short section to it per se, but Judith > presumably used its Italian as her specific focus for reconstructing > this particular dance. I would generally agree with that practice: > since dances *did* evolve during period, it's usually best to focus > on one specific source for your reconstruction if you can, and use > the others mainly to help disambiguate confusing passages. How many years between the first Amoroso and the last? If I remember right, Judith said 80 years. Perhaps that does make it different from what I'd been thinking of, Playford versus Lovelace versus MS Sloane 3858, where they're probably separated by a few years last I heard. But I'm also willing to believe in an Urtanz, that people in period might recognize the Platonic ideal of Amoroso ... or several Platonic ideals, but "several Platonic ideals" kinda shoots my theory in the foot. Danielis Lindum Colonia -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com From upelluri at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 15:52:00 2015 From: upelluri at gmail.com (Aaron Macks) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 15:52:00 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <553D41E0.4020309@gmail.com> Ebreo was active roughly 1440-1480, and became Ambrosio around 1468. Barbara Sparti cites the BNF Italian 973 as the first of the Ebreo MS, and dates it to 1463 ( October 11 according to the colophon) Gun?ormr On 4/26/15 1:38 PM, Tim McDaniel wrote: > On Sun, 26 Apr 2015, Justin du coeur wrote: >> The citation is, "New York, Public Library, Dance Collection, >> Lincoln Center, MGZMBZ-Res. 72-254". It is one of a number of MSS >> attributed to Ebreo / Ambrosio, who wrote most of the books in this >> repertoire. It's broadly similar to several of the others, and >> Smith only devotes a short section to it per se, but Judith >> presumably used its Italian as her specific focus for reconstructing >> this particular dance. I would generally agree with that practice: >> since dances *did* evolve during period, it's usually best to focus >> on one specific source for your reconstruction if you can, and use >> the others mainly to help disambiguate confusing passages. > > How many years between the first Amoroso and the last? If I remember > right, Judith said 80 years. Perhaps that does make it different from > what I'd been thinking of, Playford versus Lovelace versus MS Sloane > 3858, where they're probably separated by a few years last I heard. > > But I'm also willing to believe in an Urtanz, that people in period > might recognize the Platonic ideal of Amoroso ... or several Platonic > ideals, but "several Platonic ideals" kinda shoots my theory in the foot. > > Danielis Lindum Colonia > -- _______________________________________________________ Aaron Macks(aaronm at wiglaf.org) [http://www.wiglaf.org/~aaronm ] My sheep has seven gall bladders, that makes me the King of the Universe! From bgdeonna at hotmail.com Sun Apr 26 17:04:55 2015 From: bgdeonna at hotmail.com (Beth) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 17:04:55 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS Message-ID: As one of those that taught branles at KWDMS I specifically taught the from the Arbeau and, while I mentioned that there were some regional variations I did not teach them. We did not change partners and I mentioned that Arbeau says the branles can be done as open lines or closed circles. I also have mentioned that learning the words helps a lot. YIS Deonna Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S? 4 mini ?, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: tmcd at panix.com
Date:04/26/2015 2:41 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: SCA Dance
Cc:
Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS
I have some questions from KWDS, and realized I could ask the list. (And thereby ask Perronnelle, whom I was originally going to bother.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Countess Judith de Northumbria (Rachel Lorenz) Reconsidering the lilly: Gelosia, Amoroso and Belfiore She cited Smith, A. William, _15th Century Dance and Music_, as the source for the Amoroso version she taught. She called that version the "New York Public Library" version. Is there any more information on that particular source, or is it just a weird catalog number? I'm idly curious about this bit. As best I wrote it, the manuscript says that the piva is "a double that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates the dancer to it". Is this the only definition of piva, or are there similar ones from other sources? Is Amoroso's tempo quaternaria? Do I remember right, that she said that the manuals talk about one person "leading", and there are pictures of people approximately in file? Is side-by-side also attested in pictures? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bransles I'm guessing that the versions I saw there are pretty much the originals, and I've been dancing SCA alterations that make them non-period (perhaps far from it)? --- Pease Bransle: about the only version I've seen is as in http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Pease_Bransle.html "In the SCA, this dance is often danced as a partner-switching dance, with the women going past their partners in measures 15-16 to the next man in the circle. Arbeau mentions nothing of this practice." --- Horse's Bransle: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Horses_Bransle.html describes what I've danced: line of men facing line of women, men progess one place. He says "As usual, Arbeau says nothing about switching partners. In fact, the instructions for this dance are very hard to interpret; there are other interpretations which are actually radically different from this one. They generally start by having the couples standing beside each other, with both hands joined in promenade hold. The couple doubles to their left and right four times, and then the men paw and move off to the left, followed by the women. The only difference is the starting position, but the dance ends up being quite different. I believe this is the only dance in Arbeau which has the couples holding both hands." http://members.ozemail.com.au/~grayn1/Horses.html says Arbeau says "... the young man held the damsel by both hands.". But I think the version I saw at KWDS was a ring dance, all facing in? (I did run across the remarkably silly "Australian rules" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu0OQ3MXzsg . Hi, Elaine! And Jamie? Check out the end, when they went into cascarde moves.) --- Hay Bransle: I'm going to be handicapped by never having danced this YouTube videos showed two different tempos, but http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Bransle_Hay.html says 8 "sets" for the A and B section, where a "set" is single-single-double. (When calling, I tend to call "pavane" for that sequence to save time, regardless of how fast it is. Would "corante" be a better term?) http://ieee.uwaterloo.ca/praetzel/mp3-cd/cecil_2/hay_br.mp3 is off Saint Cecilia 2. How many people does the hay section accomodate in this rendition? I count 24 beats. Denyel de Lyncoln -- Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com ________________________________________________________________ To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed in the To line of any response. To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org Posting guidlines on the list info page: https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance ________________________________________________________________ From lindahl at pbm.com Sun Apr 26 18:08:35 2015 From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 15:08:35 -0700 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150426220835.GA2394@rd.bx9.net> On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 01:40:55AM -0500, tmcd at panix.com wrote: > As best I wrote it, the manuscript says that the piva is "a double > that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates the > dancer to it". Is this the only definition of piva, or are there > similar ones from other sources? See: Wilson, D. R. The Steps Used in Court Dancing in Fifteenth-Century Italy. Third revised & englarged edition. Self-published, 2003. ISBN 0951930737. A step concordance. Went unavilable at Dance Books in December, 2010.

The long and the short of it is that there are descriptions in several sources; the one you cite is the most basic one, and the version with the cut-under is kind of hinted at in some of the other descriptions. > Is Amoroso's tempo quaternaria? It doesn't specifically say, but, scholars generally think it's a piva. Which means, yes, the slow tempo you sometimes see it danced at is not right. > Do I remember right, that she said that the manuals talk about one > person "leading", and there are pictures of people approximately in > file? Is side-by-side also attested in pictures? See Vivian Stevens (Rosina) and Monica Cellio, Joy and Jealousy: A Manual of 15th Century Italian Balli. I have copies of the 3rd printing, or you can get it on-line at http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel/Joy_Jealousy/ for a discussion of this issue. > Pease Bransle: about the only version I've seen is as in > http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Pease_Bransle.html > "In the SCA, this dance is often danced as a partner-switching dance, > with the women going past their partners in measures 15-16 to the next > man in the circle. Arbeau mentions nothing of this practice." The partner-switching version is now less popular than it used to be, in fact I haven't seen it in a decade+. > Horse's Bransle: > http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Horses_Bransle.html describes what > I've danced: line of men facing line of women, men progess one place. > He says "As usual, Arbeau says nothing about switching partners. In > fact, the instructions for this dance are very hard to interpret; > there are other interpretations which are actually radically different > from this one. They generally start by having the couples standing > beside each other, with both hands joined in promenade hold. The > couple doubles to their left and right four times, and then the men > paw and move off to the left, followed by the women. The only > difference is the starting position, but the dance ends up being quite > different. I believe this is the only dance in Arbeau which has the > couples holding both hands." > > http://members.ozemail.com.au/~grayn1/Horses.html > says Arbeau says "... the young man held the damsel by both hands.". > > But I think the version I saw at KWDS was a ring dance, all facing in? Yes, the ring version has become popular since I wrote those words; it's just the line version with the top and bottom joined. The "Occam's Razor" reconstruction now has some additional variations from the one "promenade hold" one I describe. > YouTube videos showed two different tempos, but > http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Bransle_Hay.html says 8 "sets" for > the A and B section, where a "set" is single-single-double. (When > calling, I tend to call "pavane" for that sequence to save time, > regardless of how fast it is. Would "corante" be a better term?) The coranto is much faster than a bransle. -- Gregory From jducoeur at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 18:33:24 2015 From: jducoeur at gmail.com (Justin du coeur) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 18:33:24 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS In-Reply-To: <20150426220835.GA2394@rd.bx9.net> References: <20150426220835.GA2394@rd.bx9.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 6:08 PM, Greg Lindahl wrote: > > Pease Bransle: about the only version I've seen is as in > > http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Pease_Bransle.html > > "In the SCA, this dance is often danced as a partner-switching dance, > > with the women going past their partners in measures 15-16 to the next > > man in the circle. Arbeau mentions nothing of this practice." > > The partner-switching version is now less popular than it used to be, > in fact I haven't seen it in a decade+. > Still near-universal in these parts. We sometimes point out in teaching that this quirk is a less-likely SCAdian reconstruction, but it's popular enough that we've mostly left it alone (similar to the long-line and partner-switching Horses' Bransle)... From judithsca at aol.com Sun Apr 26 19:35:04 2015 From: judithsca at aol.com (Rachel/Judith) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 19:35:04 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS - Piva In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14cf8158d7e-4d4f-23483@webprd-m20.mail.aol.com> Greetings all - since I see my name getting tossed around, I thought I would chime in here... < On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 01:40:55AM -0500, tmcd at panix.com wrote: > As best I wrote it, the manuscript says that the piva is "a double > that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates the > dancer to it". Is this the only definition of piva, or are there > similar ones from other sources? See: Wilson, D. R. The Steps Used in Court Dancing in Fifteenth-Century Italy. Third revised & englarged edition. Self-published, 2003. ISBN 0951930737. A step concordance. Went unavilable at Dance Books in December, 2010.

The long and the short of it is that there are descriptions in several sources; the one you cite is the most basic one, and the version with the cut-under is kind of hinted at in some of the other descriptions.>> The description about the piva being a double altered, etc. is the most detailed description I have found, supplemented by the comment that it is the sad step done by the people in their country villas (do not have my books here with me, so cannot provide specific quote at the moment), and I definitely agree that one should procure Wilson's step concordance because there is a little bit said in other sources, and it is worth examining all the evidence together. However, regarding the undercut - I have spent years poring over primary-source information on the piva and have yet to see any evidence of the undercut there - where is it hinted at specifically? I would certainly be interested in anything that precise. There is one mention of a *double* - not a piva specifically - consisting of three steps, the second of which is shorter than the other two, but that does not hint at an cut-under, to my mind. That notwithstanding, I am always re-examining my assumptions and re-reading the primary sources for info. The last bout of which this winter almost led to me deciding that I (we as a scholarly community) do not really know enough to teach anyone anything about 15th c. dance. Seriously, I almost cancelled all of my classes. > Is Amoroso's tempo quaternaria? It doesn't specifically say, but, scholars generally think it's a piva. Which means, yes, the slow tempo you sometimes see it danced at is not right.>> I bed to differ on the statement that "scholars generally agree" that it is piva tempo. There are multiple cases of piva steps being danced over quaternaria music, Amoroso and Belfiore being two of them. One can play them more or less slowly, but that does not alter the fact that the music is quaternaria (4/4), and that the piva should be danced to reflect that, versus dancing a piva to music that is in proper piva/saltarello tempo (6/8). The music scholars with whom I have worked and whose work I have studied seem to think that the music for both of these dances is in 4/4 (with Belfiore having sections of 2/4 as well). In the 15th c. chronicles describing dance, there is also one explicit mention of a line of men dancing *slow* pive in a line like a snake. Therefore, it is obviously the case that piva does not have to be fast, or even syncopated, just as a saltarello does not have to be fast (take the instances where one saltarello is danced across a whole measure of bassadanza), or syncopated (saltarello in quaternaria). I suspect that the piva may have started off as a chipper country step enjoyed by peasants and later became subsumed by the aristocratic culture, morphing to fill new additional stylistic duties. Now I have to say that my personal preference for Amoroso is a medium tempo - fast enough to allow smooth flow, slow enough to display the grace imparted by the melody and and the seduction implied by the dance's choreography. Best, Judith From david.a.learmonth at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 22:40:33 2015 From: david.a.learmonth at gmail.com (David Learmonth) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 22:40:33 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, and for the Terp Book, I didn't update it to say "Line or Circle" everywhere for the branles. While aiming to get the steps and timing correct (within limits of the short notes of the book), we also had some objective when it came to how SCA commonly danced them. But yes, I believe most of them are good in a circle or line. And I don't think any of them discuss partner switching (well, Hay branle changes line order, as does Montarde, but that is different). I've personally only seen it in Horse's, and Official, I think. (I don't have arbeau and my notes in front of me right now to review. I know it is online, but I can't look right now.) Words are great though to sing to yourself. Arbeau discusses how they are a memory exercise. Darius On 26 April 2015 at 17:04, Beth wrote: > As one of those that taught branles at KWDMS I specifically taught the > from the Arbeau and, while I mentioned that there were some regional > variations I did not teach them. We did not change partners and I > mentioned that Arbeau says the branles can be done as open lines or closed > circles. > > I also have mentioned that learning the words helps a lot. > YIS > Deonna > > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S? 4 mini ?, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > >

-------- Original message --------
From: tmcd at panix.com >
Date:04/26/2015 2:41 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: SCA Dance < > sca-dance at sca-dance.org>
Cc:
Subject: [SCA-Dance] > Misc. questions from KWDS
>
> I have some questions from KWDS, and realized I could ask the list. > (And thereby ask Perronnelle, whom I was originally going to bother.) > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Countess Judith de Northumbria (Rachel Lorenz) > Reconsidering the lilly: Gelosia, Amoroso and Belfiore > > She cited Smith, A. William, _15th Century Dance and Music_, as the > source for the Amoroso version she taught. She called that version > the "New York Public Library" version. Is there any more information > on that particular source, or is it just a weird catalog number? > I'm idly curious about this bit. > > As best I wrote it, the manuscript says that the piva is "a double > that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates the > dancer to it". Is this the only definition of piva, or are there > similar ones from other sources? > > Is Amoroso's tempo quaternaria? > > Do I remember right, that she said that the manuals talk about one > person "leading", and there are pictures of people approximately in > file? Is side-by-side also attested in pictures? > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Bransles > > I'm guessing that the versions I saw there are pretty much the > originals, and I've been dancing SCA alterations that make them > non-period (perhaps far from it)? > > --- > > Pease Bransle: about the only version I've seen is as in > http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Pease_Bransle.html > "In the SCA, this dance is often danced as a partner-switching dance, > with the women going past their partners in measures 15-16 to the next > man in the circle. Arbeau mentions nothing of this practice." > > --- > > Horse's Bransle: > http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Horses_Bransle.html describes what > I've danced: line of men facing line of women, men progess one place. > He says "As usual, Arbeau says nothing about switching partners. In > fact, the instructions for this dance are very hard to interpret; > there are other interpretations which are actually radically different > from this one. They generally start by having the couples standing > beside each other, with both hands joined in promenade hold. The > couple doubles to their left and right four times, and then the men > paw and move off to the left, followed by the women. The only > difference is the starting position, but the dance ends up being quite > different. I believe this is the only dance in Arbeau which has the > couples holding both hands." > > http://members.ozemail.com.au/~grayn1/Horses.html > says Arbeau says "... the young man held the damsel by both hands.". > > But I think the version I saw at KWDS was a ring dance, all facing in? > > (I did run across the remarkably silly "Australian rules" > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu0OQ3MXzsg . Hi, Elaine! > And Jamie? Check out the end, when they went into cascarde moves.) > > --- > > Hay Bransle: I'm going to be handicapped by never having danced this > > YouTube videos showed two different tempos, but > http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Bransle_Hay.html says 8 "sets" for > the A and B section, where a "set" is single-single-double. (When > calling, I tend to call "pavane" for that sequence to save time, > regardless of how fast it is. Would "corante" be a better term?) > > http://ieee.uwaterloo.ca/praetzel/mp3-cd/cecil_2/hay_br.mp3 is off > Saint Cecilia 2. How many people does the hay section accomodate in > this rendition? I count 24 beats. > > Denyel de Lyncoln > -- > Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > From mrailing2 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 26 23:04:38 2015 From: mrailing2 at yahoo.com (Mary Railing) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 20:04:38 -0700 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1430103878.33822.YahooMailBasic@web121806.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> The "New York Public Library version" is the one used by Barbara Sparti for her translation of Guglielmo's treatise. Her translation is worth looking up as an alternative to Smith. It also includes introductory chapters on the background of the treatise, Guglielmo's life, the context of the dances in renaissance Italy, and the musical notation. It is in print, but very expensive. It should be available in academic libraries. De Pratica Seu Arte Tripudi: "On the Practice or Are of Dancing" , Guglielmo Ebreo of Pesaro (Author), Barbara Sparti (Translator) The description of the piva as "a double that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates the dancer to it" comes from Cornazano, not Guglielmo. Guglielmo says almost nothing about the steps as such. He discusses piva, saltarello, quadernaria and bassadanza extensively as musical tempi, but for all you can tell from his writing they might all just be doubles done at different speeds with different effects. Amoroso is in piva. Sparti transcribed the music "for easier reading only" in 2/4. I'm not so sure about the "leading" thing. I seem to recall references to the lady leading the repeat of the dance, using the verb "guider", which doesn't necessarily mean leading in the sense of "preceding". However, after skimming through various dances, I haven't found an example of this. Now I'm wondering if our practice of repeating the dance with the lady leading is the exception rather than the rule with these dances. As for pictures showing two people in file or side by side, I have examples of both, but the list won't allow attached pictures. We normally hold hands in a dance with the man's right hand under the lady's left hand. However, many period pictures show the man's hand over the lady's, the way couples today hold hands when walking down the street. This position allows the man to be either right beside the lady or to pull her along slightly behind him. --Urraca Yriarte de Gamboa P.S. SCA-Dance usually bounces my posts. If this message doesn't appear on that list, would you do me the favor of posting it there? -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 4/26/15, tmcd at panix.com wrote: Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS To: "SCA Dance" Date: Sunday, April 26, 2015, 2:40 AM I have some questions from KWDS, and realized I could ask the list. (And thereby ask Perronnelle, whom I was originally going to bother.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Countess Judith de Northumbria (Rachel Lorenz) Reconsidering the lilly: Gelosia, Amoroso and Belfiore She cited Smith, A. William, _15th Century Dance and Music_, as the source for the Amoroso version she taught.? She called that version the "New York Public Library" version.? Is there any more information on that particular source, or is it just a weird catalog number? I'm idly curious about this bit. As best I wrote it, the manuscript says that the piva is "a double that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates the dancer to it".? Is this the only definition of piva, or are there similar ones from other sources? Is Amoroso's tempo quaternaria? Do I remember right, that she said that the manuals talk about one person "leading", and there are pictures of people approximately in file?? Is side-by-side also attested in pictures? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From tmcd at panix.com Sun Apr 26 23:29:58 2015 From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 22:29:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS In-Reply-To: <1430103878.33822.YahooMailBasic@web121806.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1430103878.33822.YahooMailBasic@web121806.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I can't tell whether this had gone to the SCA-Dance list, so I'll echo it here. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mary Railing wrote: The "New York Public Library version" is the one used by Barbara Sparti for her translation of Guglielmo's treatise. Her translation is worth looking up as an alternative to Smith. It also includes introductory chapters on the background of the treatise, Guglielmo's life, the context of the dances in renaissance Italy, and the musical notation. It is in print, but very expensive. It should be available in academic libraries. De Pratica Seu Arte Tripudi: "On the Practice or Are of Dancing" , Guglielmo Ebreo of Pesaro (Author), Barbara Sparti (Translator) The description of the piva as "a double that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates the dancer to it" comes from Cornazano, not Guglielmo. Guglielmo says almost nothing about the steps as such. He discusses piva, saltarello, quadernaria and bassadanza extensively as musical tempi, but for all you can tell from his writing they might all just be doubles done at different speeds with different effects. Amoroso is in piva. Sparti transcribed the music "for easier reading only" in 2/4. I'm not so sure about the "leading" thing. I seem to recall references to the lady leading the repeat of the dance, using the verb "guider", which doesn't necessarily mean leading in the sense of "preceding". However, after skimming through various dances, I haven't found an example of this. Now I'm wondering if our practice of repeating the dance with the lady leading is the exception rather than the rule with these dances. As for pictures showing two people in file or side by side, I have examples of both, but the list won't allow attached pictures. We normally hold hands in a dance with the man's right hand under the lady's left hand. However, many period pictures show the man's hand over the lady's, the way couples today hold hands when walking down the street. This position allows the man to be either right beside the lady or to pull her along slightly behind him. --Urraca Yriarte de Gamboa P.S. SCA-Dance usually bounces my posts. If this message doesn't appear on that list, would you do me the favor of posting it there? -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 4/26/15, tmcd at panix.com wrote: Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS To: "SCA Dance" Date: Sunday, April 26, 2015, 2:40 AM I have some questions from KWDS, and realized I could ask the list. (And thereby ask Perronnelle, whom I was originally going to bother.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Countess Judith de Northumbria (Rachel Lorenz) Reconsidering the lilly: Gelosia, Amoroso and Belfiore She cited Smith, A. William, _15th Century Dance and Music_, as the source for the Amoroso version she taught.? She called that version the "New York Public Library" version.? Is there any more information on that particular source, or is it just a weird catalog number? I'm idly curious about this bit. As best I wrote it, the manuscript says that the piva is "a double that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates the dancer to it".? Is this the only definition of piva, or are there similar ones from other sources? Is Amoroso's tempo quaternaria? Do I remember right, that she said that the manuals talk about one person "leading", and there are pictures of people approximately in file?? Is side-by-side also attested in pictures? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From judithsca at aol.com Mon Apr 27 04:03:49 2015 From: judithsca at aol.com (Rachel/Judith) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 04:03:49 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS - Piva In-Reply-To: <14cf8158d7e-4d4f-23483@webprd-m20.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <14cf9e75576-4d4f-26553@webprd-m20.mail.aol.com> p.s. I know that tone tends to go astray in electronic format, so let me reiterate that I intended my comments to be understood in the spirit of respectful academic debate. The mysteries of 15th century dance will ultimately only be solved by the invention of time machines, the appearance of worm holes to gaze into the past, or the discovery of that long-hope for manual that sees fit to describe things in the same detail as 16th c. manuals (and even with that level of description, there is still room for some debate). J -----Original Message----- From: Rachel/Judith To: sca-dance Sent: Mon, Apr 27, 2015 8:35 am Subject: Re: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS - Piva Greetings all - since I see my name getting tossed around, I thought I would chime in here... < On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 01:40:55AM -0500, tmcd at panix.com wrote: > As best I wrote it, the manuscript says that the piva is "a double > that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates the > dancer to it". Is this the only definition of piva, or are there > similar ones from other sources? See: Wilson, D. R. The Steps Used in Court Dancing in Fifteenth-Century Italy. Third revised & englarged edition. Self-published, 2003. ISBN 0951930737. A step concordance. Went unavilable at Dance Books in December, 2010.

The long and the short of it is that there are descriptions in several sources; the one you cite is the most basic one, and the version with the cut-under is kind of hinted at in some of the other descriptions.>> The description about the piva being a double altered, etc. is the most detailed description I have found, supplemented by the comment that it is the sad step done by the people in their country villas (do not have my books here with me, so cannot provide specific quote at the moment), and I definitely agree that one should procure Wilson's step concordance because there is a little bit said in other sources, and it is worth examining all the evidence together. However, regarding the undercut - I have spent years poring over primary-source information on the piva and have yet to see any evidence of the undercut there - where is it hinted at specifically? I would certainly be interested in anything that precise. There is one mention of a *double* - not a piva specifically - consisting of three steps, the second of which is shorter than the other two, but that does not hint at an cut-under, to my mind. That notwithstanding, I am always re-examining my assumptions and re-reading the primary sources for info. The last bout of which this winter almost led to me deciding that I (we as a scholarly community) do not really know enough to teach anyone anything about 15th c. dance. Seriously, I almost cancelled all of my classes. > Is Amoroso's tempo quaternaria? It doesn't specifically say, but, scholars generally think it's a piva. Which means, yes, the slow tempo you sometimes see it danced at is not right.>> I bed to differ on the statement that "scholars generally agree" that it is piva tempo. There are multiple cases of piva steps being danced over quaternaria music, Amoroso and Belfiore being two of them. One can play them more or less slowly, but that does not alter the fact that the music is quaternaria (4/4), and that the piva should be danced to reflect that, versus dancing a piva to music that is in proper piva/saltarello tempo (6/8). The music scholars with whom I have worked and whose work I have studied seem to think that the music for both of these dances is in 4/4 (with Belfiore having sections of 2/4 as well). In the 15th c. chronicles describing dance, there is also one explicit mention of a line of men dancing *slow* pive in a line like a snake. Therefore, it is obviously the case that piva does not have to be fast, or even syncopated, just as a saltarello does not have to be fast (take the instances where one saltarello is danced across a whole measure of bassadanza), or syncopated (saltarello in quaternaria). I suspect that the piva may have started off as a chipper country step enjoyed by peasants and later became subsumed by the aristocratic culture, morphing to fill new additional stylistic duties. Now I have to say that my personal preference for Amoroso is a medium tempo - fast enough to allow smooth flow, slow enough to display the grace imparted by the melody and and the seduction implied by the dance's choreography. Best, Judith From judithsca at aol.com Mon Apr 27 04:46:50 2015 From: judithsca at aol.com (Rachel/Judith) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 04:46:50 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS - Leading and repeating in 15th c. dance/Amoroso In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14cfa0eb63b-4d4f-26e47@webprd-m20.mail.aol.com> Again, since my name is getting tossed around on the question of leading, I thought I would once more comment here (although I do not have much more time for this, sadly. The reporting and followup for KWDS is pretty extensive) Denyel de Lyncoln asked about leading in 15th c. dance, to which Mary Railing (Urraca) replied: I'm not so sure about the "leading" thing. I seem to recall references to the lady leading the repeat of the dance, using the verb "guider", which doesn't necessarily mean leading in the sense of "preceding". However, after skimming through various dances, I haven't found an example of this. Now I'm wondering if our practice of repeating the dance with the lady leading is the exception rather than the rule with these dances. I do not recall the word "guider" (which strikes me as french and not Tuscan) from the sources, but I do not have all my books here with me in Spain. What I do know from what I do have here is the phrase "and the man sends the lady forward" or "they dance it again and the woman goes forward", among other phrasing (all with the word "imnanzi", i.e. forward). This phrase tends to appear in dances that end with the woman having assumed the left position in the couple. The left position is often refered to in the Italian as being "above" (disopra) and the right position is often refered to as being "below", and sometimes as "in front" and "behind", which I said in my class "Regilding the lilly" might imply that the left person is actually leading the right person from a slightly front position - a theory for which I have visual evidence in which couples dancing feature the man leading the lady, with his hand over top of hers. Not to mention that "sending forward" certainly conjures images of one person being ahead of the other. Now, I was clear in my class that this was a theory on which I was working, and I did not mean to imply that this is set in stone, and the only way form up for a dance, i.e. with one person ahead of the set. However, the nuances and subtleties of language do need to be taken into consideration (translation being my profession...), and there might well be a very tangible reason why "above/ahead/in front" are all synonymous with "on the left", and vice-versa for "on the right". Regarding repeats...Specifically in the version of Amoroso that I taught, it ends with the statement that the closing figure puts the woman forward - you are correct, it does not explicitly state that there is a repeat in this instance, but for nearly all of the other dances I have read and reconstructed ending with the woman forward/above, they generally come with the instruction to repeat the dance, someties explicitly stating until everyone has had their turn to lead, or something along those lines (for dances with sets of three or multiple couples, for instance). I therefore feel that Amoroso should repeat to return the universe to its zero state, as it were. There are even instances in which one or several versions of the dance do not specify a repeat, and other versions do - so it could be a case of either distinctions in custom by region and/or time, or the fact that repetition was so common that they author felt no need to explicitly state it. Certain sources, for instance, tend to explcitily always state a repeat for ay given dance, while the other sources say nothing of it at all, even though they do say that the dance ends with the woman "forward" One dance in particular, Marchesana, has several versions that clearly change across time, the earlier of which has the dancers ending as they did at the beginning, with the woman on the right, while other versions have a figure that puts the woman on the left and states there should be a repeat. A quick scan of Smith's concordance makes it clear which sources tend to demand a repeat, and which ones as a rule do not, even when one repeat of the dance ends with the woman "forward". Okay, back to the work for which I actually get paid... :-) Judith From judithsca at aol.com Mon Apr 27 06:43:46 2015 From: judithsca at aol.com (Rachel/Judith) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 06:43:46 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS - Piva - revision of statement on quaternaria In-Reply-To: <14cf8158d7e-4d4f-23483@webprd-m20.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <14cfa79c333-4d4f-27ab5@webprd-m20.mail.aol.com> So apparently I should not hit the "send" button at 1:30 in the morning, no matter how excited I am at the prospect of god academic debate// < Denyel of Lyncoln asked: > Is Amoroso's tempo quaternaria?< To which Gregory Blount responded: <> To which I replied: << I bed to differ on the statement that "scholars generally agree" that it is piva tempo. There are multiple cases of piva steps being danced over quaternaria music, Amoroso and Belfiore being two of them. One can play them more or less slowly, but that does not alter the fact that the music is quaternaria (4/4), and that the piva should be danced to reflect that, versus dancing a piva to music that is in proper piva/saltarello tempo (6/8). The music scholars with whom I have worked and whose work I have studied seem to think that the music for both of these dances is in 4/4 (with Belfiore having sections of 2/4 as well).>> What I should have said is: Some scholars mensurate Amoroso as 4/4, some as 2/4, but in any case, there are multiple cases of one piva being danced across one bar of 4/4, Amoroso and Belfiore being two of them. Belfiore even specifically states that the dance starts with XII tempi of pive in quaternaria - there is a question as to whether that should be six bars of 4/4 with two pive per bar, or twelve bars of 4/4, but to my mind the sedate, delicate melody lends itself to the latter rather than the former. In both the cases of Belfiore and Amoroso, the melody does have an obvious syncopation that should be reflected by the pive. My statement about differentiating between a piva in 4/4 and a pive in 6/8 still stands, as does my comment about pive not always being fast, and my statement about prefering a medium tempo for Amoroso, quoted below for ease of understanding: "In the 15th c. chronicles describing dance, there is also one explicit mention of a line of men dancing *slow* pive in a line like a snake. Therefore, it is obviously the case that piva does not have to be fast, or even syncopated, just as a saltarello does not have to be fast (take the instances where one saltarello is danced across a whole measure of bassadanza), or [nor does it have to be] syncopated (i.e. saltarello in quaternaria). I suspect that the piva may have started off as a chipper country step enjoyed by peasants and later became subsumed by the aristocratic culture, morphing to fill new additional stylistic duties. Now I have to say that my personal preference for Amoroso is a medium tempo - fast enough to allow smooth flow, slow enough to display the grace imparted by the melody and and the seduction implied by the dance's choreography." Judith, who should temper her enthusiasm for academic debate by sleep... From jducoeur at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 07:46:27 2015 From: jducoeur at gmail.com (Justin du coeur) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 07:46:27 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS In-Reply-To: <1430103878.33822.YahooMailBasic@web121806.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1430103878.33822.YahooMailBasic@web121806.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 11:04 PM, Mary Railing wrote: > P.S. SCA-Dance usually bounces my posts. If this message doesn't appear on > that list, would you do me the favor of posting it there? Your message did come through the list; however, since you're on Yahoo, Gmail is spam-foldering it. That may be the effect you're thinking of. (Nothing to do with this list per se -- Yahoo simply doesn't work properly with most mailing lists any more...) From jducoeur at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 07:52:11 2015 From: jducoeur at gmail.com (Justin du coeur) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 07:52:11 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS - Piva In-Reply-To: <14cf8158d7e-4d4f-23483@webprd-m20.mail.aol.com> References: <14cf8158d7e-4d4f-23483@webprd-m20.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 7:35 PM, Rachel/Judith wrote: > However, regarding the undercut - I have spent years poring over > primary-source information on the piva and have yet to see any evidence of > the undercut there - where is it hinted at specifically? I would certainly > be interested in anything that precise. +1. We had done away with the cut-under locally about 20-25 years ago, because we couldn't find any textual justification for it; I'm curious what the source of its recent resurgence is... From upelluri at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 16:32:40 2015 From: upelluri at gmail.com (Aaron Macks) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 16:32:40 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS In-Reply-To: <1430103878.33822.YahooMailBasic@web121806.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1430103878.33822.YahooMailBasic@web121806.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <553E9CE8.5070906@gmail.com> I believe you're incorrect. Sparti talks about starting her project as a translation/annotation of the NYPL manuscript after the death of the donor, but then changes to translate what she believes is the source MS, which is also the only one with a dedication and music, BnF Ital. 973 Gun?ormr On 4/26/15 11:04 PM, Mary Railing wrote: > The "New York Public Library version" is the one used by Barbara Sparti for her translation of Guglielmo's treatise. Her translation is worth looking up as an alternative to Smith. It also includes introductory chapters on the background of the treatise, Guglielmo's life, the context of the dances in renaissance Italy, and the musical notation. It is in print, but very expensive. It should be available in academic libraries. > De Pratica Seu Arte Tripudi: "On the Practice or Are of Dancing" , Guglielmo Ebreo of Pesaro (Author), Barbara Sparti (Translator) > > The description of the piva as "a double that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates the dancer to it" comes from Cornazano, not Guglielmo. Guglielmo says almost nothing about the steps as such. He discusses piva, saltarello, quadernaria and bassadanza extensively as musical tempi, but for all you can tell from his writing they might all just be doubles done at different speeds with different effects. > > Amoroso is in piva. Sparti transcribed the music "for easier reading only" in 2/4. > > I'm not so sure about the "leading" thing. I seem to recall references to the lady leading the repeat of the dance, using the verb "guider", which doesn't necessarily mean leading in the sense of "preceding". However, after skimming through various dances, I haven't found an example of this. Now I'm wondering if our practice of repeating the dance with the lady leading is the exception rather than the rule with these dances. > As for pictures showing two people in file or side by side, I have examples of both, but the list won't allow attached pictures. We normally hold hands in a dance with the man's right hand under the lady's left hand. However, many period pictures show the man's hand over the lady's, the way couples today hold hands when walking down the street. This position allows the man to be either right beside the lady or to pull her along slightly behind him. > > --Urraca Yriarte de Gamboa > > P.S. SCA-Dance usually bounces my posts. If this message doesn't appear on that list, would you do me the favor of posting it there? > -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 4/26/15, tmcd at panix.com wrote: > > Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS > To: "SCA Dance" > Date: Sunday, April 26, 2015, 2:40 AM > > I have some questions from KWDS, and > realized I could ask the list. > (And thereby ask Perronnelle, whom I was originally going to > bother.) > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Countess Judith de Northumbria (Rachel Lorenz) > Reconsidering the lilly: Gelosia, Amoroso and Belfiore > > She cited Smith, A. William, _15th Century Dance and Music_, > as the > source for the Amoroso version she taught. She called > that version > the "New York Public Library" version. Is there any > more information > on that particular source, or is it just a weird catalog > number? > I'm idly curious about this bit. > > As best I wrote it, the manuscript says that the piva is "a > double > that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates > the > dancer to it". Is this the only definition of piva, or > are there > similar ones from other sources? > > Is Amoroso's tempo quaternaria? > > Do I remember right, that she said that the manuals talk > about one > person "leading", and there are pictures of people > approximately in > file? Is side-by-side also attested in pictures? > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > -- _______________________________________________________ Aaron Macks(aaronm at wiglaf.org) [http://www.wiglaf.org/~aaronm ] My sheep has seven gall bladders, that makes me the King of the Universe! From bwebb at inf.ed.ac.uk Tue Apr 28 09:45:25 2015 From: bwebb at inf.ed.ac.uk (Barbara Webb) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 14:45:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: [SCA-Dance] Sca-dance Digest, Vol 112, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > See: > > Wilson, D. R. The Steps Used in Court > Dancing in Fifteenth-Century Italy. > Third revised & englarged > edition. Self-published, 2003. ISBN 0951930737. A step > concordance. Went > unavilable at Dance Books in December, 2010.

This book is still advertised as available via the (UK-based) Early Dance Circle: http://www.earlydancecircle.co.uk/publications/aids-to-study/ with order form here: http://www.earlydancecircle.co.uk/publications/publication-order-form/ (Steps used in 15th C. Court Dancing) Caitlin -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From bwebb at inf.ed.ac.uk Tue Apr 28 10:35:45 2015 From: bwebb at inf.ed.ac.uk (Barbara Webb) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 15:35:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: [SCA-Dance] Horses Message-ID: >> Horse's Bransle: >> >> http://members.ozemail.com.au/~grayn1/Horses.html >> says Arbeau says "... the young man held the damsel by both hands.". We've been doing Horses using the most straightforward way of interpreting this - i.e. face your partner and take both hands (rather than a promenade or some other two-hand hold). The doubles left and right are then done in the corresponding small circle formed by this single couple, effectively changing places back and forth with your partner. Drop hands but keep facing each other while each does the the horsy taps, single and turn, ending where they started to take hands again. In practice this makes for a fun dance, easy to teach to complete novices. I *think* I have seen at least some other groups do it this way, but possibly outside the SCA. For multiple couples, each can just pick their own space on the dance floor (effectively you will stay on this spot) or you can line up men opposite women, or if already in a circle just turn to face your partner, or make a double circle with men on inside and women on outside - it doesn't really matter. If you really want a partner swap, the last formation works, using either the singles or the turns to shift one or more partners along. Caitlin -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From mhultin at mymts.net Sun Apr 26 09:18:23 2015 From: mhultin at mymts.net (Monica Hultin) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 08:18:23 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I haven't been dancing at an SCA event, but a few points from the distance past, (30 years ago) Pease bransle, I had never danced this switching partners, always staying with the same partner, so switchiing partners must have come about since then. The only variation I saw was differnt interpretaions of how fast the last three jumps would take place, sometime three slow and steady, some did it with a pause then three quick leaps. The dance was played for flirting. As the man takes three leaps, he shift left closer to the lady, and the lady does her three leaps, she coquettishly leaps further away. The single leaps would be done as flirting sort of way. Horses Bransle I always did in the concentric circles with couples facing each other, and switching partners. I've only seen it done in a line in one place, which led to a ridiculous and unelegant dash to the end of the line by the man left off the end to find his new partner. Monika -----Original Message----- From: tmcd at panix.com Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 1:40 AM To: SCA Dance Subject: [SCA-Dance] Misc. questions from KWDS I have some questions from KWDS, and realized I could ask the list. (And thereby ask Perronnelle, whom I was originally going to bother.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Countess Judith de Northumbria (Rachel Lorenz) Reconsidering the lilly: Gelosia, Amoroso and Belfiore She cited Smith, A. William, _15th Century Dance and Music_, as the source for the Amoroso version she taught. She called that version the "New York Public Library" version. Is there any more information on that particular source, or is it just a weird catalog number? I'm idly curious about this bit. As best I wrote it, the manuscript says that the piva is "a double that is altered and accelerated by the music that stimulates the dancer to it". Is this the only definition of piva, or are there similar ones from other sources? Is Amoroso's tempo quaternaria? Do I remember right, that she said that the manuals talk about one person "leading", and there are pictures of people approximately in file? Is side-by-side also attested in pictures? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bransles I'm guessing that the versions I saw there are pretty much the originals, and I've been dancing SCA alterations that make them non-period (perhaps far from it)? --- Pease Bransle: about the only version I've seen is as in http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Pease_Bransle.html "In the SCA, this dance is often danced as a partner-switching dance, with the women going past their partners in measures 15-16 to the next man in the circle. Arbeau mentions nothing of this practice." --- Horse's Bransle: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Horses_Bransle.html describes what I've danced: line of men facing line of women, men progess one place. He says "As usual, Arbeau says nothing about switching partners. In fact, the instructions for this dance are very hard to interpret; there are other interpretations which are actually radically different from this one. They generally start by having the couples standing beside each other, with both hands joined in promenade hold. The couple doubles to their left and right four times, and then the men paw and move off to the left, followed by the women. The only difference is the starting position, but the dance ends up being quite different. I believe this is the only dance in Arbeau which has the couples holding both hands." http://members.ozemail.com.au/~grayn1/Horses.html says Arbeau says "... the young man held the damsel by both hands.". But I think the version I saw at KWDS was a ring dance, all facing in? (I did run across the remarkably silly "Australian rules" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu0OQ3MXzsg . Hi, Elaine! And Jamie? Check out the end, when they went into cascarde moves.) --- Hay Bransle: I'm going to be handicapped by never having danced this YouTube videos showed two different tempos, but http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/Bransle_Hay.html says 8 "sets" for the A and B section, where a "set" is single-single-double. (When calling, I tend to call "pavane" for that sequence to save time, regardless of how fast it is. Would "corante" be a better term?) http://ieee.uwaterloo.ca/praetzel/mp3-cd/cecil_2/hay_br.mp3 is off Saint Cecilia 2. How many people does the hay section accomodate in this rendition? I count 24 beats. Denyel de Lyncoln -- Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com ________________________________________________________________ To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed in the To line of any response. To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org Posting guidlines on the list info page: https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance ________________________________________________________________