From tmcd at panix.com Tue Sep 10 16:19:39 2013 From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 15:19:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [SCA-Dance] German dances? Message-ID: In the local dance group's list: > 11/1/13: Blanken Museum has requested we perform a half hour dance > demo with Germanic theme if possible on Friday evening. I agreed to > this plan. Oh Daniel...you wanna teach some German Dance? Erm. Eek, even. The only German-based dances I've heard of are from that letter from northern Italy to Germany, where the dances were (as I dimly recall) somewhat mutated from the Italian versions. Thea of Jaravellir's work. Is this called the Nurnberg Manuscript? I'm at work and can't refresh my memory, but the one I recall vaguely has what I think of as the "three blind mice" chorus -- Vite de Colei, I think, for two dancers "improper". Any suggestions of something I can work up relatively easily, or should I just try to dig out Thea's handout and flog my failing neurons? Daniel Delindquist -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com From migulas at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 16:46:03 2013 From: migulas at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?TWlrdWzDocWh?=) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 22:46:03 +0200 Subject: [SCA-Dance] German dances? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, it's the Nurnber manuscript, wit Italian hits such as Amoroso an Roti-boully. There is a copy at Greg's web pages ( http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/nurnberg/) and translation in Smith. You might as well do some Allemande, Arbeau believes it's of a German origin, and the name sure suggest so: "L?allemande est une dance plaine de mediocre gravit?, familiere aux Allemands, & croy qu?elle soit de noz plus anciennes, car nous sommes descendus des Allemands". Also, you could probably get away with basse dances from Brussels manuscript, since Margarette d'Autriche was a daughter of Maxmilian the 1st, emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, which covers basicly whole today Germany... That's all my tips, good luck and let us know if you think of something else! Mikul?? On 10 September 2013 22:19, Tim McDaniel wrote: > In the local dance group's list: > > 11/1/13: Blanken Museum has requested we perform a half hour dance > > demo with Germanic theme if possible on Friday evening. I agreed to > > this plan. Oh Daniel...you wanna teach some German Dance? > > Erm. Eek, even. The only German-based dances I've heard of are from > that letter from northern Italy to Germany, where the dances were (as > I dimly recall) somewhat mutated from the Italian versions. Thea of > Jaravellir's work. Is this called the Nurnberg Manuscript? I'm at > work and can't refresh my memory, but the one I recall vaguely has > what I think of as the "three blind mice" chorus -- Vite de Colei, I > think, for two dancers "improper". > > Any suggestions of something I can work up relatively easily, or > should I just try to dig out Thea's handout and flog my failing > neurons? > > Daniel Delindquist > -- > Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > -- emil - migulas at gmail.com -- Rond, o.s. | Radov?nky a kratochv?le d?vn?ch ?as?. Osv?ta v oblasti star?ho tance, spole?ensk? reperto?r 1450?1890 a evropsk? bal-folk. | http://blog.rond.cz Treizh | Chansons de Bretagne ? trois voix. | http://bandzone.cz/treizh BAL LAB | Close musical encounters of the dance kind! | http://bandzone.cz/ballab ba.fnu | Bal folk nuevo. TraMiditional dance music. | http://bandzone.cz/bafnu From tmcd at panix.com Tue Sep 10 17:40:26 2013 From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 16:40:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [SCA-Dance] German dances? In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Sep 2013, Mikul_ wrote: > You might as well do some Allemande, Arbeau believes it's of a > German origin, and the name sure suggest so: "L'allemande est une > dance plaine de mediocre gravit_, familiere aux Allemands, & croy > qu'elle soit de noz plus anciennes, car nous sommes descendus des > Allemands". As in Inns of Court? *Those* we could do with one foot in a bucket and the smell of smoke off-stage. I don't have Orchesography and haven't heard much of it (except that it was early, and I heard about the bransles). What does Arbeau says about l'Allemande (other than the above)? Danett de Linccolne -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com From upelluri at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 18:00:03 2013 From: upelluri at gmail.com (Aaron Macks) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 18:00:03 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] German dances? In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: <522F9663.5070307@gmail.com> There's actually a recent book (about 2003 I think) about Almains in the Inns of Court, and the author has some solid, though conjectural, on the Germanic origins. I'll dig out the source tonight. As we know them they are entirely English dances, but the origins, as the name seems to imply, are German GunDormr On 9/10/13 5:40 PM, Tim McDaniel wrote: > On Tue, 10 Sep 2013, Mikul_ wrote: >> You might as well do some Allemande, Arbeau believes it's of a >> German origin, and the name sure suggest so: "L'allemande est une >> dance plaine de mediocre gravit_, familiere aux Allemands, & croy >> qu'elle soit de noz plus anciennes, car nous sommes descendus des >> Allemands". > > As in Inns of Court? *Those* we could do with one foot in a bucket > and the smell of smoke off-stage. > > I don't have Orchesography and haven't heard much of it (except that > it was early, and I heard about the bransles). What does Arbeau says > about l'Allemande (other than the above)? > > Danett de Linccolne > -- _______________________________________________________ Aaron Macks(aaronm at wiglaf.org) [http://www.wiglaf.org/~aaronm ] My sheep has seven gall bladders, that makes me the King of the Universe! From charlene281 at gmail.com Wed Sep 18 17:24:24 2013 From: charlene281 at gmail.com (Charlene C) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:24:24 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] German citation Message-ID: >From the SCA-dance archives (2001), Urraca posted: -------------------------- > > Bartsch, K. (Hg.): ?ber den Tanz (Teilabdruck einer > > Handschrift ?Von deme tancze? aus dem Jahr 1448). > > In: Germania 30, Neue Reihe 18 (1885) 197-202. > On the dance (partial printing of a manuscript "Von deme tancze" from > the year 1448) If this isn't an early typesetting of the Nurnberg manuscript, this could be a primary source unexamined by dance historians. Hunting down a German journal from the nineteenth century is a task beyond me, but someone should be able to do it. I hope someone can locate this source. -------------------------- I found the source online. It's in German and Latin: http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Datei:Germania_30_1885.pdf Anyone care to take a stab at what this is? --Perronnelle From judithsca at aol.com Thu Sep 19 12:13:21 2013 From: judithsca at aol.com (Rachel/Judith) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 12:13:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [SCA-Dance] re: German citation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0836A4B84F3E8-E44-F3D0@webmail-d217.sysops.aol.com> I have started to read it, and it is in essence a sermon condeming the sinful nature of dance - there is a great deal of such literature in this era. I have a fascinating work on my bookshelf that focuses on dance in germany in the 15th c. and 16th c. and probably provides th enmost detaield information we have available about dance in that era - which is to say, not much about chreography or footwork, but a lot about the setting in which it was danced, and what people wore, etc. Will report more as soon as I get further! Judith -----Original Message----- From: sca-dance-request To: sca-dance Sent: Thu, Sep 19, 2013 6:03 pm Subject: Sca-dance Digest, Vol 95, Issue 2 Send Sca-dance mailing list submissions to sca-dance at sca-dance.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance r, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org You can reach the person managing the list at sca-dance-owner at sca-dance.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific han "Re: Contents of Sca-dance digest..." oday's Topics: 1. German citation (Charlene C) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 ate: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:24:24 -0500 rom: Charlene C ubject: [SCA-Dance] German citation o: sca-dance at sca-dance.org essage-ID: ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >From the SCA-dance archives (2001), Urraca posted: -------------------------- > Bartsch, K. (Hg.): ?ber den Tanz (Teilabdruck einer > Handschrift ?Von deme tancze? aus dem Jahr 1448). > In: Germania 30, Neue Reihe 18 (1885) 197-202. > On the dance (partial printing of a manuscript "Von deme tancze" from the year 1448) If this isn't an early typesetting of the Nurnberg manuscript, this could e a primary source unexamined by dance historians. Hunting down a German ournal from the nineteenth century is a task beyond me, but someone hould be able to do it. I hope someone can locate this source. ------------------------- I found the source online. It's in German and Latin: ttp://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Datei:Germania_30_1885.pdf Anyone care to take a stab at what this is? --Perronnelle ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ ca-dance mailing list ca-dance at sca-dance.org ttps://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance End of Sca-dance Digest, Vol 95, Issue 2 *************************************** From mhultin at mymts.net Sat Sep 14 17:53:59 2013 From: mhultin at mymts.net (Monica Hultin) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 16:53:59 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle Message-ID: Hi everyone, I learned Pinagay Bransle in the SCA years ago (20 or so), but haven?t been active for awhile now. So I am curious about a particular development in this dance I heard of talking to a young SCA member. When I learned this piece, the last set of doubles were not repeated. Nor is there a repeat noted in Arbeau. So why are people adding a repeat now? Also, when I look at videos, it appears to be the latest style to repeat the final doubles. Comments? Monika z Gniezno From johnbobmead at gmail.com Thu Sep 19 07:52:54 2013 From: johnbobmead at gmail.com (John Mead) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 04:52:54 -0700 Subject: [SCA-Dance] German citation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, it doesn't show up in Worldcat,, but OCLC doesn't have that many German libraries as members. Yours, Ian Jameson On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 2:24 PM, Charlene C wrote: > >From the SCA-dance archives (2001), Urraca posted: > > -------------------------- > > > Bartsch, K. (Hg.): ?ber den Tanz (Teilabdruck einer > > > Handschrift ?Von deme tancze? aus dem Jahr 1448). > > > In: Germania 30, Neue Reihe 18 (1885) 197-202. > > > On the dance (partial printing of a manuscript "Von deme tancze" from > > the year 1448) > > If this isn't an early typesetting of the Nurnberg manuscript, this could > be a primary source unexamined by dance historians. Hunting down a German > journal from the nineteenth century is a task beyond me, but someone > should be able to do it. I hope someone can locate this source. > -------------------------- > > I found the source online. It's in German and Latin: > http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Datei:Germania_30_1885.pdf > > Anyone care to take a stab at what this is? > > --Perronnelle > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > From ianengle at earthlink.net Thu Sep 19 12:25:12 2013 From: ianengle at earthlink.net (Ian Engle) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 12:25:12 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [SCA-Dance] German citation Message-ID: <18032691.1379607912600.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> If this is Germania published by J.B. Metzler (subjects: German philology and literature) then OCLC shows holdings at quite a few universities, including U of Texas/Austin, IU and Ohio State (also UCLA, Georgetown, U Illinois, Notre Dame, U of Kansas, harvard, Princeton, NY Univeristy, NY Public, Penn State, U of Virginia, U Washington--those are the ones whose codes I recognize.) Guess I should wander down to the OSU main library... --Sion >>From the SCA-dance archives (2001), Urraca posted: > >-------------------------- >> > Bartsch, K. (Hg.): ?ber den Tanz (Teilabdruck einer >> > Handschrift ?Von deme tancze? aus dem Jahr 1448). >> > In: Germania 30, Neue Reihe 18 (1885) 197-202. > >> On the dance (partial printing of a manuscript "Von deme tancze" from >> the year 1448) > >If this isn't an early typesetting of the Nurnberg manuscript, this could >be a primary source unexamined by dance historians. Hunting down a German >journal from the nineteenth century is a task beyond me, but someone >should be able to do it. I hope someone can locate this source. >-------------------------- > >I found the source online. It's in German and Latin: >http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Datei:Germania_30_1885.pdf > >Anyone care to take a stab at what this is? > >--Perronnelle From shusmarx at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 22:42:50 2013 From: shusmarx at yahoo.com (Lisa Marx) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 02:42:50 -0000 Subject: [SCA-Dance] looking for video or steps Message-ID: <1378435366.4559.YahooMailNeo@web162006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> A local ballet teacher is asking if anyone has a video - or even steps - for a ballet called la Merlaison. She says it's from 1635. Any ideas where I can send her? Elisa/Elize From jducoeur at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 08:22:08 2013 From: jducoeur at gmail.com (Justin du coeur) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 08:22:08 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My impression is that that tendency (and it varies in many bransles) is mainly driven by what musical recordings a branch happens to use. Some musicians (notably Wolgemut) have a tendency to repeat everything in the bransles, even when Arbeau doesn't obviously call for it. I don't think there's been any global change to the dance, though: this is probably just local custom. (Reconstruction always varies across the Society...) On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Monica Hultin wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I learned Pinagay Bransle in the SCA years ago (20 or so), but haven?t > been active for awhile now. So I am curious about a particular development > in this dance I heard of talking to a young SCA member. > > When I learned this piece, the last set of doubles were not repeated. Nor > is there a repeat noted in Arbeau. So why are people adding a repeat now? > Also, when I look at videos, it appears to be the latest style to repeat > the final doubles. > > Comments? > > Monika z Gniezno > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ From david.a.learmonth at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 08:22:11 2013 From: david.a.learmonth at gmail.com (David Learmonth) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 08:22:11 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I personally don't tend to repeat the last set of doubles, unless the music / musician tells me to. :) I'm not certain if it is now the fashion, or just happens to be spreading in certain areas perhaps? Cassandra, Charlotte, and Aridan all often have the B section of the music / dance repeated, and since these are all part of the same suite, this could be one origin for the trend. Although I must say that repeating the latter half of War bransle is just cruel. :P Mostly in our area(s) (Ealdormere, and Cynnabar / Midrealm I think), we've had fun with the bransles by making them a bit of a game. Our skilled musicians will play them in order, and then will mix up the order, so we have those first 4 beats of each one (the Double to the Left) to figure out which one we are dancing by the tune being played. It is a neat challenge. We started with this particular bransle suite, as it made the most sense I think, but we've branched into throwing in nearly any bransle out there, sometimes at least, which can be quite the challenge to remember all the tunes. (most of them are fairly clear once you've heard them, or you can follow along with other people. But there are a few bransles that have the same general structure, such that you could actually do one bransle to the tune of another, without having it feel particularly off / without being out of sync with the music. I'm trying to remember which ones, I think Hermit's, Clog, and Pease might have been one of the few examples, though the music certainly does sound different.) Darius On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Monica Hultin wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I learned Pinagay Bransle in the SCA years ago (20 or so), but haven?t > been active for awhile now. So I am curious about a particular development > in this dance I heard of talking to a young SCA member. > > When I learned this piece, the last set of doubles were not repeated. Nor > is there a repeat noted in Arbeau. So why are people adding a repeat now? > Also, when I look at videos, it appears to be the latest style to repeat > the final doubles. > > Comments? > > Monika z Gniezno > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ From tmcd at panix.com Wed Sep 25 10:03:57 2013 From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 09:03:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Sep 2013, Justin du coeur wrote: > My impression is that that tendency (and it varies in many bransles) > is mainly driven by what musical recordings a branch happens to use. > Some musicians (notably Wolgemut) have a tendency to repeat > everything in the bransles, even when Arbeau doesn't obviously call > for it. In contrast, Musica Subterranea's Pinagay (off the green CD) has only one double at the end so that's what we do. The recording my group has available for Pepper's Black has about an extra third of the dance tacked onto the end. The dance is energetic enough that we just stop when the dance ends, but it would not surprise me if we started dancing from the start. A group I danced with elsewhere had a Cuckold's with an extra verse, so when we danced it there, we ended with the first verse all over again. The Ly Bens Dystonyns we have permits only the three-singles-forward version, which has an extra couple of bars of music to make it all fit. I'd like a source for other reconstructions for variety's sake. (But I'd really like to figure out a version where we dance the steps as written, of course at least as best we can interpret Gresley, but that would require other music mutation and require live musicians on hand to play.) Danel de Lincoln -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com From charlene281 at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 13:49:55 2013 From: charlene281 at gmail.com (Charlene C) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 12:49:55 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 7:22 AM, Justin du coeur wrote: > My impression is that that tendency (and it varies in many bransles) is > mainly driven by what musical recordings a branch happens to use. Some > musicians (notably Wolgemut) have a tendency to repeat everything in the > bransles, even when Arbeau doesn't obviously call for it. Agreed. What recordings a group has often informs their version of a dance. Checking my four recordings of Pinagay, half repeat the B. The two that have the repeat are also European bands; the other two are US. --Perronnelle From charlene281 at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 13:55:47 2013 From: charlene281 at gmail.com (Charlene C) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 12:55:47 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Tim McDaniel wrote: > In contrast, Musica Subterranea's Pinagay (off the green CD) has only > one double at the end so that's what we do. The recording my group > has available for Pepper's Black has about an extra third of the dance > tacked onto the end. The dance is energetic enough that we just stop > when the dance ends, but it would not surprise me if we started > dancing from the start. A group I danced with elsewhere had a That recording is by Pyewackett and is a medley of Pepper's Black and Tomorrow the Fox WIll Come to Town. Pepper's Black was more popular when I started dancing 20 years ago and we did the dance 1-3/4 times through to fill the music. That also meant dancers were dancing off the phrasing of the music which also bugged me. > (But I'd really like to figure out a version where we dance the steps > as written, of course at least as best we can interpret Gresley, but > that would require other music mutation and require live musicians on > hand to play.) For some definition of "as written." Gresley is vague enough to invite wildly different interpretations. --Perronnelle From john.white at drexel.edu Wed Sep 25 14:23:01 2013 From: john.white at drexel.edu (White,John) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 18:23:01 +0000 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D20F4D2C36@MB4.drexel.edu> > From: Charlene C > > On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Tim McDaniel wrote: > > > The recording my group > > has available for Pepper's Black has about an extra third of the dance > > tacked onto the end. The dance is energetic enough that we just stop > > when the dance ends, but it would not surprise me if we started > > dancing from the start. A group I danced with elsewhere had a > > That recording is by Pyewackett and is a medley of Pepper's Black and > Tomorrow the Fox WIll Come to Town. Pepper's Black was more popular > when I started dancing 20 years ago and we did the dance 1-3/4 times > through to fill the music. That also meant dancers were dancing off the > phrasing of the music which also bugged me. > > --Perronnelle It seems to me that, since Playford's Pepper's Black is a circle dance for as many as will (though with a normal line-dance progression, as opposed to a dance-with progression), the definition of "extra third" is relevant only to doing the dance with a certain number of people. I know that there exists a '4 couples in a square' version, but we really should call that something at least somewhat different, since it is an SCA creation. \\Dafydd C From tmcd at panix.com Wed Sep 25 14:26:51 2013 From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 13:26:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D20F4D2C36@MB4.drexel.edu> References:

<6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D20F4D2C36@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Sep 2013, White,John wrote: > It seems to me that, since Playford's Pepper's Black is a circle > dance for as many as will ... > I know that there exists a '4 couples in a square' version, but we really should > call that something at least somewhat different, since it is an SCA creation. !!! Son of a gun! I never knew. Next, you'll tell me something crazy, like that Half Hannikin isn't a circle progressive dance. (If I used emoticons, I'd attach a smiley, but I won't.) Daniel Lincolnia -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com From charlene281 at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 14:56:08 2013 From: charlene281 at gmail.com (Charlene C) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 13:56:08 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D20F4D2C36@MB4.drexel.edu> References:

<6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D20F4D2C36@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 1:23 PM, White,John wrote: > It seems to me that, since Playford's Pepper's Black is a circle dance for as many as will > (though with a normal line-dance progression, as opposed to a dance-with progression), > the definition of "extra third" is relevant only to doing the dance with a certain number > of people. I know that there exists a '4 couples in a square' version, but we really should > call that something at least somewhat different, since it is an SCA creation. The square for four version of Pepper's Black comes from Cecil Sharp. --P From john.white at drexel.edu Wed Sep 25 15:00:15 2013 From: john.white at drexel.edu (White,John) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 19:00:15 +0000 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: References:

<6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D20F4D2C36@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D20F4D2CE9@MB4.drexel.edu> > From: Charlene C > > On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 1:23 PM, White,John > wrote: > > > It seems to me that, since Playford's Pepper's Black is a circle dance > > for as many as will > > I know that there exists a '4 couples in a square' version, but we really > > should call that something at least somewhat different, since it is an SCA > > creation. > > The square for four version of Pepper's Black comes from Cecil Sharp. > > --P I stand corrected - there are two square for four versions, because the one that is actually on my dance page was created (or so she said) by Sorcha, and I got it from the KWDS in Texas. So both are still modern creations. \\Dafydd C From charlene281 at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 15:10:25 2013 From: charlene281 at gmail.com (Charlene C) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 14:10:25 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D20F4D2CE9@MB4.drexel.edu> References:

<6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D20F4D2C36@MB4.drexel.edu> <6CEF9498CE7F2A4AB4B8F0CD27CB36D20F4D2CE9@MB4.drexel.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 2:00 PM, White,John wrote: >> The square for four version of Pepper's Black comes from Cecil Sharp. >> >> --P > I stand corrected - there are two square for four versions, because the one that is > actually on my dance page was created (or so she said) by Sorcha, and I got it from > the KWDS in Texas. So both are still modern creations. > > \\Dafydd C Darn! We're both wrong. I just looked it up (should have done that first without going from memory). The four couple version is from Millar. [The same source as the round Half Hannikin.] --Perronnelle From alexbclark at pennswoods.net Wed Sep 25 22:21:58 2013 From: alexbclark at pennswoods.net (Alexander Clark) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 22:21:58 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To set the record straight(er), it's in the SCA that the mixed branles are swept into a single suite. Arbeau only identifies Cassandre and Pinagay as the first two of a suite, while the other mixed branles are not in the suite. I've just consulted the facsimile, and Arbeau has repeats at the end (going back to a point other than the beginning) only for Cassandre and Aridan, not for Pinagay, Charlotte, or War. All but Pinagay repeat the first strain of the tune, and Pinagay and Aridan have "don't repeat" signs to point out where it might seem like the music begins a new strain at a place where there isn't any repeat either forward or back. In the case of Aridan, the "don't repeat" means that it is only divided into two for repeats, and not into three. So to sum up how the tunes are divided by repeat signs, and what to repeat before starting over at the beginning: Cassandre: Divided in two, repeat both. Pinagay: Undivided, no repeats. Charlotte: Divided in two, repeat the first. War: Divided in two, repeat the first. Aridan: Divided in two, repeat both. -- Henry/Alex On 9/25/13, David Learmonth wrote: > I personally don't tend to repeat the last set of doubles, unless the music > / musician tells me to. :) > > I'm not certain if it is now the fashion, or just happens to be spreading > in certain areas perhaps? Cassandra, Charlotte, and Aridan all often have > the B section of the music / dance repeated, and since these are all part > of the same suite, this could be one origin for the trend. > > Although I must say that repeating the latter half of War bransle is just > cruel. :P > > Mostly in our area(s) (Ealdormere, and Cynnabar / Midrealm I think), we've > had fun with the bransles by making them a bit of a game. Our skilled > musicians will play them in order, and then will mix up the order, so we > have those first 4 beats of each one (the Double to the Left) to figure out > which one we are dancing by the tune being played. It is a neat challenge. > We started with this particular bransle suite, as it made the most sense I > think, but we've branched into throwing in nearly any bransle out there, > sometimes at least, which can be quite the challenge to remember all the > tunes. (most of them are fairly clear once you've heard them, or you can > follow along with other people. But there are a few bransles that have the > same general structure, such that you could actually do one bransle to the > tune of another, without having it feel particularly off / without being > out of sync with the music. I'm trying to remember which ones, I think > Hermit's, Clog, and Pease might have been one of the few examples, though > the music certainly does sound different.) > > Darius > > > On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Monica Hultin wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> I learned Pinagay Bransle in the SCA years ago (20 or so), but haven?t >> been active for awhile now. So I am curious about a particular >> development >> in this dance I heard of talking to a young SCA member. >> >> When I learned this piece, the last set of doubles were not repeated. >> Nor >> is there a repeat noted in Arbeau. So why are people adding a repeat >> now? >> Also, when I look at videos, it appears to be the latest style to repeat >> the final doubles. >> >> Comments? >> >> Monika z Gniezno >> ________________________________________________________________ >> To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is >> listed >> in the To line of any response. >> >> To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org >> >> Posting guidlines on the list info page: >> https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance >> ________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > From david.a.learmonth at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 06:51:50 2013 From: david.a.learmonth at gmail.com (David Learmonth) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 06:51:50 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Henry! That repeat structure sounds most typical / most common to me. Sorry about that, I always thought that all 5 were part of the suite, and that there were others as well that just weren't listed, just that we didn't know what they were. But it has been a while since I'd gone back to this suite from the very start and looked at the original french (this was the first set I looked at, and thought I had finally sorted out most of the details). :) Darius On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 10:21 PM, Alexander Clark wrote: > To set the record straight(er), it's in the SCA that the mixed branles > are swept into a single suite. Arbeau only identifies Cassandre and > Pinagay as the first two of a suite, while the other mixed branles are > not in the suite. > > I've just consulted the facsimile, and Arbeau has repeats at the end > (going back to a point other than the beginning) only for Cassandre > and Aridan, not for Pinagay, Charlotte, or War. All but Pinagay repeat > the first strain of the tune, and Pinagay and Aridan have "don't > repeat" signs to point out where it might seem like the music begins a > new strain at a place where there isn't any repeat either forward or > back. In the case of Aridan, the "don't repeat" means that it is only > divided into two for repeats, and not into three. > > So to sum up how the tunes are divided by repeat signs, and what to > repeat before starting over at the beginning: > Cassandre: Divided in two, repeat both. > Pinagay: Undivided, no repeats. > Charlotte: Divided in two, repeat the first. > War: Divided in two, repeat the first. > Aridan: Divided in two, repeat both. > > -- > Henry/Alex > > On 9/25/13, David Learmonth wrote: > > I personally don't tend to repeat the last set of doubles, unless the > music > > / musician tells me to. :) > > > > I'm not certain if it is now the fashion, or just happens to be spreading > > in certain areas perhaps? Cassandra, Charlotte, and Aridan all often > have > > the B section of the music / dance repeated, and since these are all part > > of the same suite, this could be one origin for the trend. > > > > Although I must say that repeating the latter half of War bransle is just > > cruel. :P > > > > Mostly in our area(s) (Ealdormere, and Cynnabar / Midrealm I think), > we've > > had fun with the bransles by making them a bit of a game. Our skilled > > musicians will play them in order, and then will mix up the order, so we > > have those first 4 beats of each one (the Double to the Left) to figure > out > > which one we are dancing by the tune being played. It is a neat > challenge. > > We started with this particular bransle suite, as it made the most > sense I > > think, but we've branched into throwing in nearly any bransle out there, > > sometimes at least, which can be quite the challenge to remember all the > > tunes. (most of them are fairly clear once you've heard them, or you can > > follow along with other people. But there are a few bransles that have > the > > same general structure, such that you could actually do one bransle to > the > > tune of another, without having it feel particularly off / without being > > out of sync with the music. I'm trying to remember which ones, I think > > Hermit's, Clog, and Pease might have been one of the few examples, though > > the music certainly does sound different.) > > > > Darius > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Monica Hultin > wrote: > > > >> Hi everyone, > >> > >> I learned Pinagay Bransle in the SCA years ago (20 or so), but haven?t > >> been active for awhile now. So I am curious about a particular > >> development > >> in this dance I heard of talking to a young SCA member. > >> > >> When I learned this piece, the last set of doubles were not repeated. > >> Nor > >> is there a repeat noted in Arbeau. So why are people adding a repeat > >> now? > >> Also, when I look at videos, it appears to be the latest style to repeat > >> the final doubles. > >> > >> Comments? > >> > >> Monika z Gniezno > >> ________________________________________________________________ > >> To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is > >> listed > >> in the To line of any response. > >> > >> To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > >> > >> Posting guidlines on the list info page: > >> https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > >> ________________________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________ > > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is > listed > > in the To line of any response. > > > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > From judithsca at aol.com Wed Sep 25 08:44:25 2013 From: judithsca at aol.com (Rachel/Judith) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 08:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [SCA-Dance] Sca-dance German citation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0880419E4B813-744-1435@webmail-d207.sysops.aol.com> Salvete! I ploughed my way through it, and the German citation is what I suspected: a sermon preaching against the evils of dance. Does not countain any groundbreaking revelations, alas. Just the usual reference to jumping/springing/leaping/hopping, as implied by the German verb "springen" and the Italian verb "saltare". Perhaps someday something new will be discovered, but as of now, German scholarship on medieval and Renaissance dance has unearthed no German manuals. Judith From lanhamlaw at att.net Wed Sep 25 18:09:46 2013 From: lanhamlaw at att.net (Stephen Kiefert) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 15:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [SCA-Dance] branle v bransle Message-ID: <1380146986.80173.YahooMailNeo@web181502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Arbeau spells it branle but we often, as in the recent thread, see it spelled bransle - does anyone know when or how it changed ? Stefan From charlene281 at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 13:17:51 2013 From: charlene281 at gmail.com (Charlene C) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 12:17:51 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 5:51 AM, David Learmonth wrote: > Sorry about that, I always thought that all 5 were part of the suite, and > that there were others as well that just weren't listed, just that we > didn't know what they were. But it has been a while since I'd gone back to > this suite from the very start and looked at the original french (this was > the first set I looked at, and thought I had finally sorted out most of the > details). :) Arbeau mentions the concept of doing branles in suites, he just doesn't identify any suites other than double-single-gay-Burgundian. We do Cassandra-Pinagay-Charlotte-War-Aridan together because (say it along with me :-) ) "that's the way it is on the recording." >From the Sutton version: p 129 - ... All musicians are in the habit of opening the dancing by a double branle which they call the common branle, and afterwards they play the single branle and the gay branle and at the end of the branles of Burgundy, which some people call branles of Champagne.... p 137 - The musicians call them mixed branles of Champagne, and, with a view to orderly classification, these branles have been arranged in numbered series. Our musicians in Langres play ten in succession which they call mixed branles of Champagne; they play another number in sequence known as Camp branles and yet other have named branles of Hainaut and branles of Avignon. And, as fresh compositions appear and novelties appear, so they devise new series and bestow upon them what names they wish. p 137 - I shall not give you any tabulations but will leave you to memorize them yourself under the guidance of the master musicians or from your companions. And when you are proficient enough to wish to dance them at some festival you will ask the musicians for the suite you require by name and they will play it for you. In the meanwhile, I will warn you that if you aspire to dance these branles well you know know the tunes by heart and sing them in your head with the violin. [Capriol then requests the tabulation for two or three to make understanding the concept easier and Arbeau obligizes.] p 137 - Very well, here are the tabulations for the branles of Cassandra and Pinagay, first and second in the suite of the mixed branles of Champagne, ... p 140 - ... In those days of yore we danced, among other mixed branles, the branle of war, the branles of Aridan and of Charlotte and an infinity of others. --Perronnelle From charlene281 at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 13:40:44 2013 From: charlene281 at gmail.com (Charlene C) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 12:40:44 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] branle v bransle In-Reply-To: <1380146986.80173.YahooMailNeo@web181502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1380146986.80173.YahooMailNeo@web181502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Stephen Kiefert wrote: > Arbeau spells it branle but we often, as in the recent thread, see it spelled bransle - does anyone know when or how it changed Modern French has "branler"* meaning to oscillate, shake, or wobble. I checked Cotgrave's 1611 French-English dictionary and he shows "bransle" with the same meaning as well as noting it's the dance called in English "brawle." No idea when or how English acquired the "s". Taking a quick search through the OED, looking at entries who meaning is dance rather than other movement: etymology: French bransle (16th cent.), a graphical variant of branle 1590 Spenser Faerie Queene iii. x. sig. Mm2, Now making layes of loue..Bransles, Ballads, virelayes. 1597 T. Morley Plaine & Easie Introd. Musicke 181 The bransle de poictou or bransle double is more quick in time..but the straine is longer, containing most vsually twelue whole strokes. 1674 R. Boyle About Excellency Mech. Hypothesis in Excellency Theol. 34 Branles, Sarabands, Jigs, and other..Tunes. There are several variant spellings for the movement, but not the dance: brandle, brangle, etc. --Perronnelle NB: Careful with modern French speakers who don't know the dance. The reflexive French verb (to ... myself) is "se branler" and is a slang term referring to male masturbation. I've had a French speaker snicker when I talked about branles. :-) From david.a.learmonth at gmail.com Fri Sep 27 01:32:32 2013 From: david.a.learmonth at gmail.com (David Learmonth) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2013 01:32:32 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Grinning, I have to mention a small correction. There is 1 suite at least besides Double Bransle suite where we know some of the dances: The Scottish Bransle Suite. :) Of course, we just tend to dance Scottish Bransle as a single dance, instead of 2 separate bransles, out of who knows how many that are otherwise unfortunately unlisted. Oh, and interesting tidbit of info here, that the pattern of doing the two Scottish Bransles, is remarkably similar to the fast part of War bransle. :) I didn't notice until one class where I taught them together. (depending of course on your repeat structure, and the end is a bit different.) Darius On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Charlene C wrote: > On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 5:51 AM, David Learmonth > wrote: > > > Sorry about that, I always thought that all 5 were part of the suite, and > > that there were others as well that just weren't listed, just that we > > didn't know what they were. But it has been a while since I'd gone back > to > > this suite from the very start and looked at the original french (this > was > > the first set I looked at, and thought I had finally sorted out most of > the > > details). :) > > Arbeau mentions the concept of doing branles in suites, he just > doesn't identify any suites other than double-single-gay-Burgundian. > We do Cassandra-Pinagay-Charlotte-War-Aridan together because (say it > along with me :-) ) "that's the way it is on the recording." > > >From the Sutton version: > > p 129 - ... All musicians are in the habit of opening the dancing by > a double branle which they call the common branle, and afterwards they > play the single branle and the gay branle and at the end of the > branles of Burgundy, which some people call branles of Champagne.... > > p 137 - The musicians call them mixed branles of Champagne, and, with > a view to orderly classification, these branles have been arranged in > numbered series. Our musicians in Langres play ten in succession which > they call mixed branles of Champagne; they play another number in > sequence known as Camp branles and yet other have named branles of > Hainaut and branles of Avignon. And, as fresh compositions appear and > novelties appear, so they devise new series and bestow upon them what > names they wish. > > p 137 - I shall not give you any tabulations but will leave you to > memorize them yourself under the guidance of the master musicians or > from your companions. And when you are proficient enough to wish to > dance them at some festival you will ask the musicians for the suite > you require by name and they will play it for you. In the meanwhile, I > will warn you that if you aspire to dance these branles well you know > know the tunes by heart and sing them in your head with the violin. > > [Capriol then requests the tabulation for two or three to make > understanding the concept easier and Arbeau obligizes.] > > p 137 - Very well, here are the tabulations for the branles of > Cassandra and Pinagay, first and second in the suite of the mixed > branles of Champagne, ... > > p 140 - ... In those days of yore we danced, among other mixed > branles, the branle of war, the branles of Aridan and of Charlotte and > an infinity of others. > > > --Perronnelle > ________________________________________________________________ > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is listed > in the To line of any response. > > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org > > Posting guidlines on the list info page: > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance > ________________________________________________________________ > From charlene281 at gmail.com Fri Sep 27 03:35:36 2013 From: charlene281 at gmail.com (Charlene C) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2013 02:35:36 -0500 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 12:32 AM, David Learmonth wrote: > Grinning, I have to mention a small correction. There is 1 suite at least > besides Double Bransle suite where we know some of the dances: The Scottish > Bransle Suite. :) Of course, we just tend to dance Scottish Bransle as a > single dance, instead of 2 separate bransles, out of who knows how many that > are otherwise unfortunately unlisted. Yup, got me there. I didn't skim far enough into the book. ;-) --P From david.a.learmonth at gmail.com Fri Sep 27 11:03:52 2013 From: david.a.learmonth at gmail.com (David Learmonth) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2013 11:03:52 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: Sending again (it bounced on the list) On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 11:01 AM, David Learmonth < david.a.learmonth at gmail.com> wrote: > Interesting. Yes, I've always wondered a bit about Triory. I personally > do dance it to 7 counts (or 14, I think one musician told me once). I do > 2 variants myself, the first one you mentioned (3 pied en l'air), and the > second I do is 3 quick heel swivels while raising my left foot for pied en > l'air in time with the 3rd swivel. And I suppose the pied en l'air, and > the swivels, I am doing all quickly, which then leaves me half a beat of > the 7 as a rest at the end. > > As for the arrangement, a suite proposal is reasonable I would think. > I've only guessed at what exactly they meant in the description. One > guess was to alternate between various versions, as desired, or perhaps at > various points in the music. Another thought I had was that, being that > this bransle was another one that appeared to be a folk dance brought in > from another region and framed as a bransle, that perhaps Arbeau starts by > describing the dance in a manner that his students would be used to, i.e. 3 > pied en l'air, because it is easier to wrap their heads around the pattern > initially. And then once they understand the dance, with its interesting > timings and weight transitions, then he throws in the extra curveball of > pointing one's heels, instead of / as well as the kicks. > > As for the timing of 7 counts, it is a bit unusual, but then, bransles are > all rather unique in having very specific music, of varying lengths. > Cassandra would be an even number of beats, but not really whole number of > bars, in the way we dancers think of them. (I'm sure that the musicians > would frame it the other way, but that would make for an odd number of > bars). Pinagay, with its kicks, is another interesting one. Though I'm > not certain if any other dances are quite as abrupt as Triory. :) > > Darius > > > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Garden, John (DPS) < > John.Garden at aph.gov.au> wrote: > >> I'd also suggest another branle 'suite' is hidden in Arbeau's description >> of Triory de Bretagne. Although Arbeau's entry on this dance is notoriously >> problematic, as I discuss in my entry on the dance in Historic Dance Volume >> II (1550-1600) ( >> http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/books-cds/Historic-Dance-II-1550-1600), Arbeau would seem to be describing 3 different variants that can all go >> to the same tune (which I believe is intended to have an 8th count in the >> tune). The variants vary in how they end- one ending with 3 pied en l'air >> (2 fast, 1 slow), one with 2 quick marque pied and 1 slow pied en l'air, >> and one with 2 quick heel swivels and 1 slow pied en l'air. I'd suggest it >> might have been appropriate to do each variant a few time then progress to >> the next-dancers taking their lead from the dance leader. It's not strictly >> a medley of sequences to different tunes, as with the Double suite or the >> Branle d'Ecosse, but it is a dance suite nevertheless which can develop >> from the simple to the more flashy. >> >> John Gardiner-Garden. >> www.earthlydelights.com.au >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sca-dance-bounces+john.garden=aph.gov.au at sca-dance.org [mailto: >> sca-dance-bounces+john.garden=aph.gov.au at sca-dance.org] On Behalf Of >> David Learmonth >> Sent: Friday, 27 September 2013 3:33 PM >> To: Charlene C >> Cc: sca-dance >> Subject: Re: [SCA-Dance] Pinagay bransle >> >> Grinning, I have to mention a small correction. There is 1 suite at least >> besides Double Bransle suite where we know some of the dances: The >> Scottish Bransle Suite. :) Of course, we just tend to dance Scottish >> Bransle as a single dance, instead of 2 separate bransles, out of who >> knows >> how many that are otherwise unfortunately unlisted. >> >> Oh, and interesting tidbit of info here, that the pattern of doing the two >> Scottish Bransles, is remarkably similar to the fast part of War bransle. >> :) I didn't notice until one class where I taught them together. >> (depending of course on your repeat structure, and the end is a bit >> different.) >> >> Darius >> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Charlene C >> wrote: >> >> > On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 5:51 AM, David Learmonth >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Sorry about that, I always thought that all 5 were part of the suite, >> and >> > > that there were others as well that just weren't listed, just that we >> > > didn't know what they were. But it has been a while since I'd gone >> back >> > to >> > > this suite from the very start and looked at the original french >> (this >> > was >> > > the first set I looked at, and thought I had finally sorted out most >> of >> > the >> > > details). :) >> > >> > Arbeau mentions the concept of doing branles in suites, he just >> > doesn't identify any suites other than double-single-gay-Burgundian. >> > We do Cassandra-Pinagay-Charlotte-War-Aridan together because (say it >> > along with me :-) ) "that's the way it is on the recording." >> > >> > >From the Sutton version: >> > >> > p 129 - ... All musicians are in the habit of opening the dancing by >> > a double branle which they call the common branle, and afterwards they >> > play the single branle and the gay branle and at the end of the >> > branles of Burgundy, which some people call branles of Champagne.... >> > >> > p 137 - The musicians call them mixed branles of Champagne, and, with >> > a view to orderly classification, these branles have been arranged in >> > numbered series. Our musicians in Langres play ten in succession which >> > they call mixed branles of Champagne; they play another number in >> > sequence known as Camp branles and yet other have named branles of >> > Hainaut and branles of Avignon. And, as fresh compositions appear and >> > novelties appear, so they devise new series and bestow upon them what >> > names they wish. >> > >> > p 137 - I shall not give you any tabulations but will leave you to >> > memorize them yourself under the guidance of the master musicians or >> > from your companions. And when you are proficient enough to wish to >> > dance them at some festival you will ask the musicians for the suite >> > you require by name and they will play it for you. In the meanwhile, I >> > will warn you that if you aspire to dance these branles well you know >> > know the tunes by heart and sing them in your head with the violin. >> > >> > [Capriol then requests the tabulation for two or three to make >> > understanding the concept easier and Arbeau obligizes.] >> > >> > p 137 - Very well, here are the tabulations for the branles of >> > Cassandra and Pinagay, first and second in the suite of the mixed >> > branles of Champagne, ... >> > >> > p 140 - ... In those days of yore we danced, among other mixed >> > branles, the branle of war, the branles of Aridan and of Charlotte and >> > an infinity of others. >> > >> > >> > --Perronnelle >> > ________________________________________________________________ >> > To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is >> listed >> > in the To line of any response. >> > >> > To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org >> > >> > Posting guidlines on the list info page: >> > https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance >> > ________________________________________________________________ >> > >> ________________________________________________________________ >> To send mail to the entire list, be sure sca-dance at sca-dance.org is >> listed >> in the To line of any response. >> >> To Unsubscribe send mail to: sca-dance-request at sca-dance.org >> >> Posting guidlines on the list info page: >> https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/sca-dance >> ________________________________________________________________ >> > > From lindahl at pbm.com Sun Sep 29 00:28:07 2013 From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2013 21:28:07 -0700 Subject: [SCA-Dance] branle v bransle Message-ID: <20130929042807.GC21588@bx9.net> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 12:40:44PM -0500, Charlene C wrote: > On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Stephen Kiefert wrote: > > > Arbeau spells it branle but we often, as in the recent thread, see it spelled bransle - does anyone know when or how it changed > > Modern French has "branler"* meaning to oscillate, shake, or wobble. I > checked Cotgrave's 1611 French-English dictionary and he shows > "bransle" with the same meaning as well as noting it's the dance > called in English "brawle." Good list! I have a survey at: "References to Dance in Sixteen Early Modern Dictionaries" http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/articles/dance_em_dict.html The main additions to your comments would be that there are 0 references to bransles/branles/brawl-as-dance in Palsgrave's 1530 English-French dictionary, and a bunch in Cotgrave's 1611 English-French dictionary. -- Gregory From jducoeur at gmail.com Mon Sep 30 10:05:00 2013 From: jducoeur at gmail.com (Justin du coeur) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 10:05:00 -0400 Subject: [SCA-Dance] branle v bransle In-Reply-To: <20130929042807.GC21588@bx9.net> References: <20130929042807.GC21588@bx9.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 29, 2013 at 12:28 AM, Greg Lindahl wrote: > The main additions to your comments would be that there are 0 > references to bransles/branles/brawl-as-dance in Palsgrave's 1530 > English-French dictionary, and a bunch in Cotgrave's 1611 > English-French dictionary. Which begs the question, were they using the term in France in 1530 yet? I haven't cracked, eg, Arena in a long time, so I don't recall...